About Dr. Chris Heilman

Dr. Christina Heilman is a Sport Psychologist, as well as a personal trainer (CSCS and ATC) who earned her PhD in Sport and Exercise Psychology from the University of Utah. She is an avid skier, but loves a lot of sports, including all aspects of rock climbing.

Dr. Chris recently joined the TrainingBeta team as our in-house Sport Psychologist, focusing on mindset in climbing. She sees clients from all over the world via video chat to help them go beyond their limitations to achieve peak levels of physical, mental and lifestyle performance. Check out her services if you’re interested in improving your own mindset.

I worked with Chris last year on a personal basis to help with low confidence and staying grounded and in the moment while climbing. We did 4 sessions together and I saw a huge decrease in negative emotions while climbing, which helped me send more hard (for me) routes than I have in years.

In this interview, we discuss how Chris works with people and what kinds of issues she commonly helps people with. Then Chris and I do another session together, catch up on where I’m at right now with my climbing, and what I need to work on moving forward. I get a bit vulnerable in this session, but hopefully you’ll be able to relate with some of the things I struggle with as a climber. Moreover, I really hope that the insight Chris gave me will help you in some way, too.

Chris works with athletes of all kinds, one-on-one and in group/team settings. She’s also wrote a textbook on sport psychology called Elevate Your Excellence: The Mindset and Methods that Make Champions.

I’ve interviewed her a couple times on the podcast, and you can listen to those here:

• TBP 096 :: Sport Psychologist on the Mental Side of Climbing Performance
• TBP 067 :: Chris Heilman on How to Stay Calm While Climbing

Dr. Chris Heilman Interview Details

I talked with Chris about how she works with people, what kinds of issues she sees often, and the results that people see. Most of the session was a journey into the inner workings of my mind…

What We Talked About

• How she works with people
• What kinds of people she works with
• Common issues she sees people for
• Results people see from working with her
• Session with Neely
• Setting intentions before climbing sessions
• How to tell if I’m trying hard
• Having expectations vs being curious
• AAA Approach
• Dealing with envy in climbing
• Rediscovering reasons why I love climbing

Dr. Chris Heilman Links

• Work with Dr. Chris: TrainingBeta.com/Mindset
• Chris Heilman’s website: www.mindset-coach.com
• Chris Heilman’s instagram: @mindsetdr
• Her book: Elevate Your Excellence
• Sam Elias’s article describing his experience working with Dr. Chris

Training Programs for You

• Check out our Route Climbing Training Program for route climbers of all abilities.
• Our other training programs: Training Programs Page.

Please Review The Podcast on iTunes!

Please give the podcast an honest review on iTunes here to help the show reach more curious climbers around the world 😉

Transcript

Neely Quinn: Welcome to the TrainingBeta podcast where I talk with climbers and trainers about how we can get a little better at our favorite sport. I’m your host, Neely Quinn, and I want to remind you that the TrainingBeta podcast is actually an offshoot of a website I created, trainingbeta.com, which is all about training for rock climbing. 

Over there we have regular blog posts, we have training programs for route climbers or boulderers, or people who just want to train finger strength or power endurance. We also have online personal training with Matt Pincus as well as nutrition consulting with myself. I am also a nutritionist. Hopefully one or more of those resources will help you become a better rock climber.

You can find us at trainingbeta.com and you can follow us on social media @trainingbeta.

Thanks for joining me for episode 143 of the podcast. Before I get into the interview I have a couple quick announcements and then I will tell you about the interview. Number one is that we have apparel, which I’m really excited about. We have t-shirts and tank tops and hoodies, both for trainingbeta.com and a different design for the podcast. They’re all cozy and soft and cute, or I think so anyway. You can find that at trainingbeta.com/shop.

One other thing is that we have decided to accept donations for the podcast. A lot of people over the years have asked me if I accept donations somehow online. I haven’t and I don’t like asking for donations but I was in the gym the other day and my friend Mark actually gave me cash. He’s a long time listener and he wanted to help support the podcast. Thank you, Mark, if you’re listening. It spurred me to basically the next day put up a ‘Donate’ button on the site. If you feel like donating to help with the administrative cost with having a podcast or my time doing the interviews and all the editing and the publishing and everything else that we do here, every little bit helps. You can do that at trainingbeta.com/donate. I thank you in advance. Definitely do not feel pressured to do that. I appreciate you listening.

Onto the interview. Today I’m talking to Doctor Chris Heilman. She is my friend and she is my sports psychologist. She is also now our sports psychologist at TrainingBeta. She is starting to see clients through TrainingBeta from anywhere in the world. She uses video chat and has for years. She works with athletes of all kinds and she has worked with a lot of climbers. I asked her to be a part of our team and I’m really excited about that. You can find that at trainingbeta.com/mindset.

I’m not going to say too much about this interview but I will say that I was very vulnerable in this and I am very truthful about my current state of how I feel about climbing and how I have felt about it in the past, struggles I’ve had with my mindset and a positive mental attitude, staying grounded and staying in my own lane – all of these things. In this interview she is going to tell you guys about how she works with people and then she is going to show you guys how she works with people by doing a session with me. Hopefully it will at least let you get to know me, like the inner workings of me, if that’s something that you’re interested in. I did want to show you the benefits that you can get from doing work with a sports psychologist because it really, really did help last year. We’ll talk about that in the interview.

Without further adieu, here is Doctor Christina Heilman. I’ll talk to you on the other side. 

Neely Quinn: Welcome back to the show, Chris. Thanks very much for talking with me today.

Doctor Chris Heilman: I’m excited to be here, besides missing out on the rest of the powder day. I was out skiing this morning. 

Neely Quinn: [laughs] So you came into this interview still in your snow pants?

Doctor Chris Heilman: Yes, I am still in my ski pants. I was wearing a beanie but I’ll get too warm talking because I get too excited. Here in the Tetons we got 11 inches of really nice snow and it was sunny so it was a bluebird powder day. I have a big smile on my face. 

Neely Quinn: Can’t miss that. I’m impressed you got out there and came back so early/so soon.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Yeah, I can do that. You can just ski for an hour and get your little fix. Didn’t Yvon Chouinard – isn’t that part of his work ethic at Patagonia? If the surf is up everybody goes out and they surf for an hour then they come back to work and they find their flow.

Neely Quinn: That’s the way it should be.

You’re a skier and a climber and a runner and so many different things. Why don’t you tell us – I mean, you’ve been on the show a few times so people should know who you are but why don’t you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Doctor Chris Heilman: Well, my name is Christina Heilman. I usually go by Chris. I live in a small town called Driggs. That’s nestled in the Tetons but I didn’t always live in the mountains. I grew up in the Great Plains and loved sports and my parents were farmers. I fell in love with skiing and the mountains. As soon as I could I moved out west. First was Joshua Tree to climb and then the Tetons to ski. In between doing all of that I was an athletic trainer and a strength and conditioning coach and then I got a PhD in sports psychology. 

I was the weird one in school because I was the one skiing and climbing in Salt Lake, in the Wasatch, and everyone else was in traditional sports like soccer and football. Everyone didn’t think I was going to finish school because I was playing too much but that wasn’t the case at all. I ended up winning a dissertation of the year award for my research in positive youth development through sport. So again, when you find your joy I think that drives excellence. 

I have a business called Mindset where I help athletes from around the world with their head game. That is a lot of rock climbers, some skiers and mountain bikers and other mountain athletes, as well as youth athletes in basketball or motocross or the whole gamut of different sports.

Neely Quinn: Most recently you have joined the TrainingBeta team and you’ll be providing sports psych services to people in this audience. It’s super exciting and I just wanted to welcome you to the team.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Thank you. I love being part of a team so I’m excited to work with you and Matt and the rest of the gang. 

Neely Quinn: Why don’t you tell me a little about how you work with people? I know the answer to this because we’ve worked together, you as my sports psychologist, but tell me what kinds of things you are working on with people. 

Doctor Chris Heilman: When I first meet someone I have them fill out an assessment. That assessment is your overall health, your satisfaction with your health and well being, and it also assesses your sports mindset. I have something called the Performance Pie which is broken down to different mental categories like coping with diversity, being under pressure, confidence, goal setting, as well as looking at your life stress and just your disposition towards sport. Do you have more of a task orientation or more of an ego orientation? What that means is with a task, you focus more on improving. With mastery and ego you maybe more focus on the outcome or the trophy or the award.

The first step is having you fill that out and then listening to your story, like who are you? Where did you come from? How did you get into this sport we call climbing? Why do you like a high gravity sport like that in the first place?

It might be your story but I find it really fascinating because it helps me connect the dots that you might not see. It’s your belief systems and your upbringing and it’s just your world but I can see it in a different light. 

Then we go into your goals. What are your goals? What I do is I ask a lot of questions. I’m committed to my clients and I think they are part of my family members when I bring them on. I want that commitment as well. We talk and ask questions and I will dig a little bit. 

What I expect or what I like to think about is that they’re taking a driver’s education course. They’re in driver’s seat. If you’re driving the car you have to do the work. I’m in the driver’s ed seat and I’m not going to let you fall off the road or get in a fender bender. I’ll guide you but you’ve got to be able to do the work. The clients that are the most committed get the most out of it. The ones that are just like, ‘Just give me the workout or give me the tools,’ and they’re not willing to dig deep? It’s usually not a good outcome. You have to be ready to be on board.

After we have a conversation it’s really two things I feel like I do. One is awareness and two is action. It’s asking these questions and helping you to come up with some answers as well as bringing in the science and the theory and the skills that I know for you to have all the moments and connect the dots. That’s the awareness piece. 

Once you’re aware it’s like: how do you take action? How do you upgrade your systems of living? If you have an app, like this old system of belief, how do I upgrade it to something new? It’s really about taking action and having new skills to have a new frame of mind. 

Neely Quinn: What kinds of changes do people typically notice in their lives or in their sports performance? 

Doctor Chris Heilman: I would say people come for a variety of reasons. Some people might say they feel more calm, some might say they feel more in control, or I’d say more so that you can navigate those emotions or thoughts versus being ‘in control.’ More confidence, they can get their goals, just more lighthearted in general, they’re enjoying and having more fun. That’s a huge one. ‘I lost my enjoyment for the sport because I was so driven and so focused on outcomes that I forgot why I enjoyed it.’ Those are just a few off the top of my head.

Neely Quinn: In working with you myself I know it’s not like you have one ‘Aha!’ moment and then everything changes. It seems like a cumulative effect of just being able to talk to somebody about these things, like the inner workings of your mind during your sport and around your sport, but then also having several ‘Aha!’ moments and then going out and playing with that when you’re out climbing and doing whatever. Then, things for me started to change where I was like, ‘Oh, I feel calmer. I’m being able to just be calm and relax and climb and have fun and see more positivity,’ and all these different things. It seems like working with you over a good amount of time is helpful.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Yeah, definitely. It’s something called latent potential, so you have these ‘Aha!’ moments but it might not be this immediate thing where now you know what to do. It takes practice, just like climbing. It’s a skill. The things that you’ve had that you’re trying to break through? They’ve been there for a long time. 

I like to think of those habits like the Grand Canyon and the Colorado River. Those things are deep and they go fast and now you’re trying to change that habit and it becomes a trickle on the hillside. That’s that new neural pathway that you’re working on and so it’s like, ‘Oh right!’ These ‘Aha!’ moments are just catching yourself riding the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon and being like, ‘Oh, that’s not where I want to be. I want to change my habit,’ and just continually doing that over time.

Neely Quinn: Right. There are tons of things that we could talk about, like we could go through case studies and in talking about this interview before we are doing this right now you and I came up with the idea of doing sort of a mini session with me. I’ll be the guinea pig here just so that people can understand how things actually work in a session, how deep you might go, what kinds of things will come out, and the actions – so the homework – that you give at the end of each session. That is something that you do. You give an email that says, “This is a summary of our conversation and here are the things that I want you to look at until our next talk.” 

How do you want to begin this?

Doctor Chris Heilman: I’ll begin it like I begin most sessions if I’ve been working with someone for awhile. Like, ‘Catch me up on what’s been going on!’ I haven’t really talked to you since this fall so maybe you can just catch me up and give me a little snapshot of what you’ve climbed, how you’re doing, trips that you’ve been on, just a little recap, whatever. It can be a funny story.

Neely Quinn: Alright. So this fall I was able to go to the Red River Gorge for the month of November, basically. I did pretty much everything I wanted to do there. I did this 13a called Easy Rider that I have always wanted to do and was too scared to do. I did Tuna Town, which I’ve always been too scared to do. I almost onsighted it. And then I did a bunch of other 12s and I was having fun onsighting and I was really proud of myself. 

Then I came home and I basically rested and ate a lot of food and stopped restricting my diet and stopped pounding it in the gym, like charging to train, because I had been doing that for the whole year. I also had some injuries in my forearms. Both of my forearms have pain and I also have this pain in my thumb so I was sort of like, ‘Well, I’ll just rest for a while,’ and then the holidays came around and I basically only climbed four times from November 21 until January 13. [laughs] I took quite a break. I just worked a ton and let myself relax.

Now, I’m fixing the injuries. They are slowly but surely getting much better through PT and diet changes, because I realized I was eating some foods that were inflaming me. Now I’m ready to lose the weight that I gained and to start training again. 

I have big goals for the year. I’m back on track and I’m psyched again but I’m struggling a little with feeling like the time I spent from November to now was just wasted so I’m regretting that. Also, sometimes I see things that my friends or other climbers are doing and I get a little bit jealous or [laughs] I guess you could say envious. That’s been kind of hard lately.

Last year I got really good at staying in my own lane and staying grounded, thanks in part to you for sure, and right now I feel really – sometimes I see what other people are doing and it makes me want to quit climbing. Like, altogether. I don’t know if I’m ever going to be as good of a climber as I want to be so it makes me just want to find a new sport. I was in Florida for 18 days or something ridiculous and we started playing pickleball. It turns out other sports are really fun! [laughs] I’m kind of like, ‘Maybe I should do something I’m better suited to?’ so I’m dealing with that. That’s where I’m at.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Well thanks for the snapshot. I really like the ups and downs of that. What I want to start with first is just going back to the beginning of being in the Red River Gorge and being proud of yourself for sending these things that you thought were once scary. I want to hear more about that. Why did you think they were scary? Because then you were nearly onsighting them.

Neely Quinn: I always thought they were scary because Tuna Town is runout. Objectively speaking, it’s runout and I have always watched people on it and been like, ‘Oh my god, that would be such an enormous fall.’ This time – I don’t know what happened to me this past year. I wasn’t thinking about it while I was climbing. I was like, ‘Alright, here’s the next move. Next move. Next move,’ and all of a sudden I was at the last bolt, probably 10 or more feet above my last bolt, and I just fell going for it. Full on going for it and took a huge whipper and it was really fun. That part of my climbing I am so overjoyed it feels like that.

Then Easy Rider, there’s this part at the fourth to the fifth bolt that I’ve always thought, ‘If I fall here I’m going to hit the ledge that is below,’ and no one else has ever seemed to have an issue with it. [laughs] I just took some practice falls to see where I would land and I just got over it and I had my husband’s voice in my head. He was like, ‘Neely, you don’t fall on shit like this,’ and there was no reason that I would fall so I just got over it, I think.

Doctor Chris Heilman: We did an exercise before, Controlling the Controllables, and we drew a circle and we talked about all of the things that you can’t control that you’re worried about and then we talked about the things that you can control and put those inside the circle. We talked about what percentage of your energy, when you’re sending, goes inside versus outside the circle. I think I have it here in my notes – 40% is inside the circle when you’re performing poorly and 60% goes to all the things like: what if I deck? What if I don’t send? What if, what if, what if…? So if it’s like, ‘I don’t know what really happened,’ I think that’s what you’ve been working on. You’re like, ‘Oh, here is what I can control. My attitude, my effort, my breathing, being here just bolt-to-bolt,’ because from the bottom all the way to the top can be really overwhelming for the brain. 

The brain doesn’t care about sending, it doesn’t care about winning, it cares about keeping you safe. It sounds like that’s what you were doing with these really scary things. You found a way to keep your brain safe. You were like, ‘I’m going bolt-to-bolt because I know I’m safe at a bolt. I took some practice falls on Easy Rider to make sure I was safe,’ so you were able to control what you could control and forget about all the other things like decking or something like that.

Neely Quinn: I’ve also just relinquished a lot of the control to my belayers, which I never was able to do before. Now I’m like, ‘Well, I’ve chosen to be up here so all I can do is trust them.’

Doctor Chris Heilman: Yeah, that’s great.

Neely Quinn: It’s different.

Doctor Chris Heilman: How is that different?

Neely Quinn: Before I was like, ‘He’s not going to catch me, she’s going to slam me…’

Doctor Chris Heilman: ‘I’m going to get hurt.’

Neely Quinn: Yeah, and now I’m like, ‘I’ve made this choice. If that is the consequence then that is the consequence of my choice.’ 

Doctor Chris Heilman: And I’ll deal with it then?

Neely Quinn: Right. I’ll deal with it then, when I’m dead. [laughs]

Doctor Chris Heilman: [laughs] That’s one way. Then you won’t have to deal with it. 

I think that just goes to the point that we carry all this extra mental baggage that’s actually really heavy. You have what’s called decision-making fatigue and so if you’re worrying about those things, like, ‘What is my belayer doing? Are they watching me? Blah, blah, blah,’ your focus is heavy and that’s taking away from your mental energy. Your mind is a muscle and it can only do so many push-ups. Once you’ve done so many push-ups it fatigues just like a muscle, that’s why Barack Obama and Steve Jobs wear the same outfit everyday. They had their black suit everyday and that’s what they wore so they could make decisions on things that were important to them.

You said you had some big goals. First, can I back up real quick? Let me commend you for taking a break and resting. That’s not an easy thing to do.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I guess. It was a treat for myself and then it turned out to be way too long. I didn’t want it to be that long. It was needed. Thank you for commending that. I know it’s hard for some people. I’m generally a pretty lazy person so resting has never been that hard for me. I really like leisure but thanks.

Doctor Chris Heilman: I didn’t know that about you. That’s great. That’s when so much growth happens. There is a formula that stress + rest = growth. You stress your body and that’s when we break down all our little fibers. When we rest, that’s when we build them up and that’s when we grow so you need that. I want to commend you for that.

Big goals – tell me about your big goals.

Neely Quinn: Last year I did a bunch of 13a’s and b’s, like I actually doubled the amount of 13a’s I’ve ever done in my life just last year, which was incredible, so that felt really good. Then I tried to do Tomb Raider, which is 13d, and I did my goal which was to two-hang it but I would like to send it this year. I also want to not focus on doing volume of lower 13s, I want to do a couple or a few 13c/d’s or c or d. There’s this one that I’m going to go check out this weekend in the Flatirons, this 13c, and then in the fall or in the summer, depending on seepage, I’ll start to go back to Rifle. Then we’ll go to Greece, I think in November, to Leonidio and I’ll maybe try something hard there so those are my goals.

In the meantime I’ll just play and have fun in other areas sometimes but I think I’m ready to just focus. I worry about that because I am pretty ego driven. I think everybody is kind of a combination. You know when you were talking about the ego and the task? Obviously there’s both in there but I get a lot of satisfaction from sending. Everybody does, I think, but it’s going to be harder for me to not have those contact successes and to just be banging my head against the wall, probably. I do worry a little bit about that but those are my big goals.

Doctor Chris Heilman: That’s really fun. What popped up for me was this image of a balance beam. The ego goals are fine, they’re great, and I agree with you that we have a combination of both task and ego but if you just have ego-oriented goals it’s like you’re walking on a tightrope. It’s like, ‘I did it or I didn’t do it.’ It’s pretty black and white and our brain likes that concrete stuff versus the abstract. Have those goals but the balance beam came into my head as how can we have that tightrope be a balance beam? Especially as you’re getting back into it, you’re injured or you’re getting over injury I should say, and how do you make more of those task-oriented goals or the more abstract or the softer goals for yourself for that wider balance beam?

As you’re moving forward – do you have a training program?

Neely Quinn: Yes.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Are you able to modify that with your physical therapist?

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I’m all good with that. 

Doctor Chris Heilman: Cool. You still say there’s this jealousy and there’s this envy so I think that’s the ego talking, right? ‘I want to be sending. I want to be improving at a faster rate than I am right now because I had a lot of success and took a break and now I’m ugh – I’m fat and lazy and I shouldn’t have rested that much.’

Neely Quinn: [laughs]

Doctor Chris Heilman: Am I wrong?

Neely Quinn: You’re right.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Yeah, I’m right. That’s what is going through your head and it’s understandable. With your training program, how are you putting in small wins for yourself? How can we put in small wins?

Neely Quinn: Good question. I think they’re going to be less measurable and maybe in some ways more measurable, like one of the things I’m doing this year is tackling my weaknesses, which I did last year too but I am terrible on slopers and pinches. Like I grab one and I basically am lost. This year I’m like, ‘Okay, this is happening.’ 

Last night I went into the gym and I was really tired and I didn’t even feel like climbing, really, but I was like, ‘I’m just going to get on these sloper problems.’ I did and I sent them and the whole time I was surprised about it. While I was up there I was like, ‘I’m going to fall off of the next move,’ and I didn’t and then I’m like, ‘I’m going to fall off the next move,’ and I didn’t. Things like that with that kind of weakness training will be a good little milestone here and there. 

In my other training, my strength training, I think I can see gains in my deadlift and my TRX stuff and my hangboarding. I think that those things will be measurable but I can’t think of anything else, really.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Okay, that’s great. I want to swing back to the sloper thing but I want to stay on the small wins. Those are all measurable things. Being kind of in a slump, being a little bit injured, maybe the small win is about setting an intention before you step into the gym and just checking in with yourself and where you’re at and what your intention is for today. You don’t know about your finger or what’s going to happen. Like this last session last night – you were like, ‘Well, I don’t know. I don’t really feel like being here. I guess I’ll try these slopers. Oh look! I got this one. Oh look!’ I’ll go into that in a moment.

Did you set an intention last night?

Neely Quinn: No. I am really bad about that. Sometimes I will go into the gym with an intention but a lot of times I’ll end up changing it, depending on how I feel, but last night even though I felt I was like, ‘This year is different, I have to work on my weaknesses,’ so then I was like, ‘I’m just doing that right now.’ So yeah, setting an intention before I go in I think would be good.

Doctor Chris Heilman: It doesn’t have to be before. You could try it before and then if that doesn’t work you could do your warm-up and see how you feel and set your intention after that. I like to set my intention before I go in. Today is Wednesday and usually I climb Wednesdays after work and I see a lot of clients on Wednesdays so I’m tired and I’m like, ‘What do I need today?’ That’s a question I ask myself. I’ll be like, ‘I’m going to work on my breathing.’ That is maybe not a measurable goal but I know that when I’m focused on my breath and I’m climbing, that really grounds me in the present regardless of what happens. It’s more task-oriented versus the ego-oriented.

Neely Quinn: Right. Interestingly, one of things I wrote down as one of my weaknesses is that I don’t breathe as well as I want to when I’m climbing. That’s a super attainable goal to go into the gym with.

Doctor Chris Heilman: And you can’t really judge yourself with it like, ‘Oops, I forgot to breathe or I did breathe.’ It’s not this measurable goal so it helps to widen that balance beam for yourself. ‘I’m supposed to be breathing. How do I want to breathe here?’ Especially in your warm-ups. Just setting that intention and planting that seed for yourself. Even in lifting, sometimes you hold your breath and sometimes you brace yourself and it’s a forceful exhale just like when you’re on the wall. Then when you relax on the wall and really taking in those deeper breaths when you’re on a rest, then really rest, and then when you go really go and use your breath to kind of guide you for that.

Neely Quinn: That’s a good one.

Doctor Chris Heilman: We don’t have to create a whole bunch of intentions right now but what’s maybe one more goal you were thinking of or one more intention that could be a possibility for you?

Neely Quinn: Well, one of my weaknesses is power and I think probably a goal – and one of my goals is to boulder more to tackle that – is maybe when I go in and boulder an intention could be just trying really hard. At least three times or something.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Great. Everybody wants to try hard, right? The trick is how do you know that you’re trying hard?

Neely Quinn: That’s a good question.

Doctor Chris Heilman: What are the boundaries you can set for yourself like: I tried hard. How do you know when you tried hard? 

Neely Quinn: For me, I know because I come off the wall and I’m dizzy. I’m a little light-headed.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Because you weren’t breathing. [laughs]

Neely Quinn: Oh my gosh. You can’t always breathe, right? You can’t always breathe when you’re trying hard. Maybe that’s a definition of trying hard but I’m going to strike that from the record. I don’t actually believe that. Maybe just feeling like I’d left everything on the table. Is that how you say that? Where I just don’t have anything else in me. I know that I went for it and I didn’t let fear stop me.

Doctor Chris Heilman: In your heart of hearts you’re like, ‘I know that I gave it my best in that moment.’

Neely Quinn: Yeah.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Could you put a scale on that? Or could you just check in with your heart? Regardless of what anyone else says, how do we know – not necessarily measure, but identify it so it’s more clear and more concrete?

Neely Quinn: I think a 1-10 scale and 1 would be I don’t feel any fatigue when I come off the wall, I’m not breathing hard, and then 10 would be like I’m dizzy, I need to sit down, my core is tired, everything is tired, I’m pumped, and maybe my fingertips hurt from squeezing so hard on something.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Okay. I would say experiment with that. Experiment with what trying hard is because maybe that’s the definition for you. I’m thinking my try hard attempt last night was giving myself ample rest and then getting on it and seeing that I tried hard but I didn’t try hard and I gave up once I got that hold. I was like, ‘Oh, I’m tired. I’ll try it a different day.’ That’s the thing about climbing. You can go back and keep trying it. A running race is like: here you go! Here is today.

Are there any other elements of this try hard that is like, ‘I gave myself ample rest and I went on.’ For me, I have a word I like to say before I get on and it’s, “Ding ding.” Just like that. [laughs] I think it’s fun and lighthearted and I like to tell people, “You’re sending!”

Neely Quinn: Oh my gosh.

Doctor Chris Heilman: I know. You should live in my head some days. That’s what I say. Not all the time because sometimes I just walk in and think, ‘I’m doing this,’ and I just walk and go and do it, but that might be something that you want to think about. Are there other aspects of this trying hard that you know?

Neely Quinn: I’ll observe what it feels like mentally and physically to try hard in the gym and then I might be better able to put a scale on it.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Just to get more clear on it and we can check in on that. 

I did say that I wanted to go back to the slopers. I just want to make a comment or ask a question. I’m not clear where I want to go with that but I found it really interesting that you said it was a weakness and you were like, ‘Oh, I got this sloper. I don’t know. Oh, I got this other one.’ I just want to ask you how did that happen? Why do you think that was the case?

Neely Quinn: I have no idea. I think it’s honestly because I have such low expectations of myself on slopers and pinches that anytime I do grab one and use it I’m astounded.

Doctor Chris Heilman: [laughs] So not really having expectations and things being like, ‘Oh! I got it!’

Neely Quinn: And maybe this past year I gained a little bit more body control and tension and I think that might be helping a little bit. I think I’m better on them than I think I am but I’m still terrible, just for the record. 

Doctor Chris Heilman: Just for the record. Write that down. I also see this from a different vantage point. I see this as the checklist girl versus the curious girl. The checklist girl goes in with expectations, ‘I need to do this. Here is my list.’ What I find with climbers is that is really narrow minded. You’re so focused you can’t see any other possibilities versus going with a curious, ‘We’ll just see what happens.’ Maybe it’s a project you’ve been working on and it’s like, ‘Okay, it’s time.’ Not that you’re not going to try hard but you’re opening for possibilities and you’re letting your brain know you’re looking for new ways of doing things versus being so set in your ways that you don’t see things and then you get mad, then you get jealous and envious, all these other things happen when you have this checklist and that’s the only thing you have.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I definitely felt curious going up the sloper problems yesterday. I was like, ‘Let’s just see what happens. Let’s just see if I can hold onto these. They look really hard but let’s just see.’

Doctor Chris Heilman: I think that’s a really fascinating mental approach because that opens up possibilities in your brain. I don’t know if we talked about the amygdala before on the podcast but I know you and I have. 

A little bit of brain science is, at the bottom of your brain you have your brain stem. That’s your reptilian brain and that’s where your flight or flight and adrenaline are at. In the middle you have your limbic system so you can think of that as your sensory input because that’s where your eyes, your nose, your ears, all of your senses are coming in and it’s your emotional brain as well. Then, on your forehead, you have your prefrontal cortex. This is the YCO [sp?] of your brain that makes decisions. 

In the middle of our limbic system we have an almond-shaped organ called amygdala and that is what I call the guard dog. It has senses coming in and it determines if you feel safe or not. If you don’t feel safe you go into your brain stem and you go into fight or flight. When we’re in fight or flight it can help us boost some performance but if we get into it too much, like the checklist girl, or having fear, then we climb really tense because we’re like, ‘Oh god, I’ve got to hold on,’ because we feel really threatened and our vision gets really narrow so we can’t see possibilities. 

But if our senses are like, ‘Hey, we feel safe. It’s cool,’ then we can use our prefrontal cortex in the front part of our brain and make wise decisions. That’s why approaching it with this curious aspect makes you able to use all of your brain versus the checklist, where the amygdala is like, ‘Okay, we’ve got this. We’ve got to do this,’ and you go down into your brain stem and you’re not able to use your whole, full brain.

Neely Quinn: Because of what your senses are telling you.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Because of what your senses are telling you. Your approach, your attitude, your outlook towards your climb has a lot to do with your brain. That’s why in the beginning, the backdoor way to talk about this jealousy and envy is to talk about your intention. How can you make that balance beam a little wider for yourself? Can I focus on my breathing? What else is there that I want to focus on besides this checklist that I have of my training so that you can use more of your brain’s capabilities?

Neely Quinn: It’s easy sometimes to just get sort of blinded. You’re in tunnel vision where you see what other people are doing and you’re like, ‘I must get there and I feel like a piece of shit that I’m not there right now.’ Is that the amygdala talking?

Doctor Chris Heilman: That’s what you told the amygdala, right? You told the amygdala that your ego feels threatened by someone else. Your brain doesn’t know the difference between reality or what you’re imagining, the story that you’re telling yourself. Your brain is an organ so it just responds. It feels threatened because you feel threatened by that person who is sending and you’re not so the amygdala goes, ‘We’re not safe,’ and then we go into the brain stem and go into fight or flight. The stories that we tell ourselves are really important.

Neely Quinn: What do you do about that? Sometimes I cannot – most of the time I’m not just sitting around feeling envious, right? I’m not that bad and I’m certainly not wishing ill will on anybody. I just want to clarify that I’m not a bad person. [laughs] It’s not comfortable for me to admit that I feel envy but I do think that a lot of us do and we just temper it and don’t tell anybody, but sometimes I do feel really bad about myself and in those moments what do I focus on? How do I get out of that?

Doctor Chris Heilman: That’s a really good question. I think that we talked this summer about the triple A’s and I think that is something to bring up. Your mind is playing tricks on you all the time and to win the mind game I came up with – I like to make things sticky and have acronyms so we can remember them in the moment – so there’s this triple A approach. 

The first A is acknowledge. What that is is, ‘I am experiencing x,’ and you fill in the blank, whatever x is. ‘I am experiencing jealousy.’ I don’t say, “I am jealous,” because that’s not who you are. You are not jealous. You are having that experience but you are not jealousy, you are not envy. Just having that separation and that witnessing is really helpful for your brain. Acknowledge. ‘I am experiencing jealousy.’ Just label it. Call it what it is.

The next A is acceptance. It’s okay to feel jealous. It’s okay to feel jealousy. Give yourself a break. We are so hard on ourselves. We’ve talked about this and I was like, ‘Let’s go back to the Red River Gorge and let’s do the celebration first. Let’s talk about all those things that you’re proud of before we get into the harder stuff.’ We’re trying to put money in the bank. It’s this acceptance piece, like, ‘It’s okay that in this moment I am experiencing jealousy.’

The last A is action. What the hell do you want to do about it? It’s your choice, right? It’s really that simple. The more you practice this it comes more simply. ‘I want to wallow and I want to be jealous. I want a pity party and I want to feel sorry for myself.’ Fine. If that’s what you want, do that.

Neely Quinn: Which is never an action that most people will take for themselves. It’s kind of shameful and it’s looked down upon to have a pity party but you have made me do this in sessions and it’s so helpful to just feel it for a little bit.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Yeah, because we’re trying to shove it away. We don’t want to feel it because we’re ashamed of feeling that way. We’re told we’re supposed to be happy all the fucking time and that’s just not true. If we’re happy all the time then life would be really boring. The ups and downs are what make us feel alive. Give it attention. 

What I try to say is, “Why don’t you set a one-minute timer to wallow? Talk to a friend, talk to yourself, write it down, let it just stir in your head, and after the one-minute timer goes off you then have a choice: what do I want to do now?” If you want to continue wallowing then wallow for one more minute and see what you’ve got but usually after that minute you’re like, ‘That’s it? That’s all I have? I’m jealous and I’m letting it ruin my whole climbing day and I can’t even come up with one minute of why I’m all jealous?’ 

It kind of becomes ridiculous and then you can be like, ‘Okay, well here is where I want to focus. Here is where my next intention is. I notice that my ego is taking over but if I remember, my intention was to focus on my breath work and have three really hard attempts. When I’m jealous and I’m thinking about that other person sending I can’t have a really hard attempt because I’m not in the present moment.’ To have a hard attempt, nothing else matters besides what you are doing in that moment. If you’re feeling jealous then that’s not a hard attempt.

Neely Quinn: That’s really good. Those are very clear action steps to take for a very unclear and nebulous feeling. You’re like, ‘Uh, I just don’t feel good,’ and then you’re like, ‘These are the three things I should do now.’ It’s really helpful and in fact, this totally helped me this summer. 

I was working on Tomb Raider and my friend Derek decided to rebolt the whole route without telling anybody and I was livid. I was out of my mind livid because it changed the whole climb for me. I was so angry at the crag. I put out a crash pad, I looked up at the climb, I was sad, I cried – so I acknowledged it – I felt terrible and I let myself feel terrible for a little while, and then I came to some acceptance of it and I was like, ‘Okay, what am I going to do?’ I just stared at the route for like 30 minutes and figured out my new clipping stances and how I was going to deal with it. I found some acceptance around it and the next time I got on it I was like, ‘This clip is much better and actually, this one I can make work,’ and blah, blah, blah. My whole attitude shifted and it was because of you [laughing] teaching me this thing so thank you.

Doctor Chris Heilman: You’re welcome. I think it’s really helpful for everyone. I feel like an emotional midget most of the time. That’s how I grew up. Whatever – you don’t have any emotions. You’re fine, you’re okay, just keep going. That is valid in some situations but not in all situations. Releasing that emotion and not carrying that heavy baggage, like, ‘It is what it is, [roaring sound].’ Some people yawn when they get really nervous, some people giggle, some people cry. Usually somebody has some kind of release if you’re really in tune with when they get really upset and how they deal with that emotion. I think just talking about it and letting it go is not a big deal. It’s okay to feel all of these things because you’re human and you’re a mortal.

Neely Quinn: I’m immortal? [laughs]

Doctor Chris Heilman: No, you’re a mortal. [laughs]

Neely Quinn: Those are the triple As and I don’t remember what we were talking about before. 

Doctor Chris Heilman: That was about how you see other people climbing and get jealous or envious and, ‘How do I deal with that?’ I think you deal with it in the moment. That’s what great athletes, great entrepreneurs – they have great energetic navigation. Like identifying what’s going on and what I want to do about it. As you have these big goals I would challenge you to dig deeper into what’s really the bigger purpose? You mentioned, ‘Whatever. I’m just going to play pickleball and be the champion of pickleball. I’m not going to climb.’ It’s totally catastrophizing. ‘I suck at this sport and I’m giving it up. I’m done.’ Catastrophizing.

What’s the deeper reasons why you climb? Go back to a North Star. As you’re trying to do these harder and harder grades, what’s the foundation that got you to Neely Quinn of TrainingBeta, making a whole living off of climbing? It’s really important to you.

Neely Quinn: Do you want me to answer that?

Doctor Chris Heilman: If you can, yeah. 

Neely Quinn: I think that there are lots of reasons. I don’t know why but I need to prove to myself that I’m good enough to achieve things and climbing is very tangible, whether or not you achieve something. It’s like getting an A+ on a test or something when you send a route. It’s not like other sports. In team sports maybe you make a few baskets or something but it’s not tangible that you’re the winner. With climbing, it’s just been this real clear way to say to myself, “I did that and I worked so hard and I did that.” It’s really black and white. 

Also, I love trying hard, most of the time. Last night I didn’t but most of the time I love pushing myself and feeling my body trying hard and I love puzzles. I love puzzles and climbing is the ultimate puzzle. You have to figure out how to get to the top of a cliff or some arbitrary point on a cliff. [laughs] You have to make it work for you and maybe sometimes make it look beautiful. 

I also love going to different places and hanging out with my friends in those places and being outside. I really love being outside but it’s mostly about the achievement. 

One time my dad asked me about that. He was like, ‘Neely, why do you climb? Why do you do that?’ and I was like, ‘I like to send.’ He was like, ‘What? That’s why you do it?’ He’s a Buddhist. He was like, ‘I would have thought that it was that you love the moving meditation of it where you get to forget about everything else in your life and you just focus on one move and the next move.’ I was like, ‘Well yeah, I guess that is a part of it.’ I just never thought of it as a driving force but it is. You do truly get to just forget about everything else. 

So, all of those reasons.

Doctor Chris Heilman: And all of those reasons are great. Trying hard, pushing yourself, you love a puzzle, the aesthetic of it, traveling and hanging out with friends, and being outside are all great things but there’s one big weed in there. I would say it’s ‘prove to myself that I’m good enough.’ 

Neely Quinn: [laughs] That’s something my therapist would say as well. 

Doctor Chris Heilman: We’re not going to go there today but that’s a big weed in the garden. There’s a lot of great seeds and plants growing but that’s one that needs to be revisited because this jealousy and envy is going to keep showing up because you’re never going to feel fulfilled.

Neely Quinn: What do you think is the way to reframe that? What would have been an acceptable way to say something like that? I know that you’re not judging me on acceptable or not. I’m being glib right now because everybody wants – I think all of us climbers are like, ‘I want to prove to myself that I can do that.’ 

Doctor Chris Heilman: So maybe it’s just building confidence for yourself. Doing hard things in climbing helps you do other hard things in other parts of your life. 

I get images, right? So I have Maslow’s hierarchy of needs that popped into my head. At the bottom is our physical safety. Do we have food and shelter? The next one is all about psychological needs, so do we have the need to belong? Are we part of a group? We go up the scale and it’s about ego needs, like achieving, so that’s part of the hierarchy of needs. But then at the top there’s potential and self-actualization. What I see is for you to reach an even bigger potential, it’s really diving into this ‘proving that I’m good enough’ to help you get to another psychological level, and then that transfers over to your physical climbing.

Neely Quinn: When I was working on this a lot last year – I do see a therapist regularly – we talked about this, too, and my goal in life is to tell myself that I am enough and that I’m loved and accepted by myself and that’s what matters instead of looking for it from other people or other places. When I can do that, when I can get to that place where I’m like, ‘I am enough. What I’m doing is enough,’ and really feel that, then I think that’s how I got to the place last year where I was accepting of where I was at and not comparing myself with other people. 

Sometimes I just slip right out of it because it’s such a habit to be in that place where I’m not enough, people don’t like me or respect me and I need to do more. It’s just a matter of constantly being on top of that and reminding myself but it’s really hard to do and it’s easy to forget about.

Doctor Chris Heilman: It’s the Grand Canyon. It’s your old pattern of, ‘I’m not good enough. I have to achieve in order to get other people’s approval,’ or somehow how you got love is by achieving, so that’s your pattern from being a child so then the trickle on the hillside is reminding yourself, “I am good enough.”

Neely Quinn: Actually, that’s a really good point. That is how I got a lot of approval and love. We all do. In school I was an A student from a very young age and an ace musician. That’s how I got attention from my parents and family so it’s definitely a habit to seek it from outward.

Doctor Chris Heilman: That’s why being aware of, ‘Oh, I recognize that I’m jealous. It’s okay. That’s part of my conditioning and I choose not to be in the Grand Canyon but instead create this new neural pathway for myself.’ I remember you saying that on some of your best climbs you were saying, “I love myself,” and then you climbed and you sent. Again, going to the brain physiology, you were keeping your brain safe. The amygdala was like, ‘Oh, I love myself!’ not like, ‘I’ve got something to prove. I’ve got to get here,’ and the amygdala doesn’t feel safe. You can send in that mindset, you definitely can.

Neely Quinn: My friend calls it a hate send.

Doctor Chris Heilman: A hate send? Yeah, it’s like how do you want to approach it? From joy or from fear? What’s more renewing versus depleting?

Neely Quinn: This is so important for me. I can see going into this year as, ‘I need to hate send all of these things because I need to prove it to myself and others that I can,’ but if I can come back to this place of coming at it from joy and self love it will be such a nicer process.

Doctor Chris Heilman: And so much more rewarding and do you need as long of a rest in between because what you’ve been doing is so renewing? It’s been depleting, too, because that’s how you grow and you need that rest but because you’re filling your bucket and doing it from a place of joy you don’t need as long of a rest, right? You’re not beating yourself up as much.

Neely Quinn: Totally.

Doctor Chris Heilman: I want to mention when we were at the Performance Climbing Coach in Murfreesboro. We had Laura there and she had a post where she was inspired and went through and listened to a bunch of podcasts. She had a post where she said one of her favorite sayings was something that I had said that I forgot. “I love myself today and tomorrow, when I’m just a little bit better, I’ll love myself then, too.” Just reminding myself that my achievements don’t define me in and of myself. I’m a pretty damn cool person. Just remind yourself that. It sounds so cheesy but some of us need that. Some of us are hardwired or conditioned to really have that achievement part of our self identity. We need that approval from others. To break that down is to keep reminding yourself.

Neely Quinn: Whew. We have so many weird things crammed into society about how important achievement is and I don’t know – it’s hard to get away from it.

Doctor Chris Heilman: We can redefine success, right? We can do that. Once you do it and I do it and some of the listeners start doing it then that’s a paradigm shift.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, and we could talk about that forever. I’ll stop myself from getting too philosophical. But anyway, these things are really important. I think this is a good reset for me and a good reminder of where I was last year at a lot of points and where I can get back to this year, I think.

Doctor Chris Heilman: For you, what are your three biggest takeaways?

Neely Quinn: Luckily, I was taking notes. Setting an intention before going to the gym or at least having one by the time I’ve warmed-up. Those intentions can be simple things like making sure I’m breathing or making sure I’m trying hard a certain amount of times. The second one is reminding myself about the triple A approach: acknowledge, acceptance, and action and using that whenever I come up to an icky feeling. Rediscovering the reasons why I climb and trying to incorporate a little bit more self love and acceptance so that I can approach climbing from a place of joy rather than fear or – not revenge but proving something.

Doctor Chris Heilman: That was four. That’s great. I love it. The intention, so having simple small wins for yourself. When you’re feeling stuck remembering the triple A. Revisiting, ‘What’s the bigger reason why I climb? What’s the foundation of the climbing?’ so that when these little tornados happen they don’t ruin your foundation because you have a solid foundation. Then the self love and acceptance and continuing to remember that’s a trickle on the hillside and the more you pay attention to that the deeper that neural pathway goes. The Grand Canyon will still be there but it won’t be as deep and as wide because you’ve now created a deeper and wider neural pathway for self love and acceptance.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I think that’ll take another 40 years but I’ll get there.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Little by little. 

Neely Quinn: Cool. That’s a great recap. I have a feeling some people will be able to relate to some of the things that I go through but I think that your approach is really nurturing as a therapist/as a practitioner. You’re motherly but also task-driven where you’re like, ‘I want to get you some usable nuggets here. We’re not just going to dwell or wallow.’ It’s really practical, the way that you go about things while still being very nurturing and sweet. I always feel really comfortable talking to you.

Doctor Chris Heilman: I’m glad. I try to really take a masculine/feminine approach. The way I see that is a river. The banks on the river are the masculine and the water is the feminine. This ties into what we were talking about earlier. We need the river banks. We need the masculine but if we have so much masculinity and so many goals and we have that checklist, then our banks get closer and closer and closer together and then we start doing some whitewater rapid rowing going down the river like, ‘Hold on! Here we go!’ If it gets so rigid and the banks get so close together no water can go through. Then you start to get burnout and things die. 

At the same time, if we don’t have the river banks then we’re just in this stagnant pond not moving anywhere, just kind of going around in circles. Sometimes we need both of those. We need a whitewater rapid and we need to be stagnant but for me, for each person it’s figuring out where the boundaries are for them. Some people are more masculine-driven and we’re on task. For some people it’s more nurturing and mothering. It just depends on where they’re at and it’s based on my intuition and experience of where that is.

Neely Quinn: It makes sense that people need different things. Where would you say I lie in the masculine/feminine?

Doctor Chris Heilman: Oh I have no idea. It’s not an intellectual thing I could say to you, it’s just totally from the heart and from the gut. I don’t know.

Neely Quinn: I just put you on the spot there.

Doctor Chris Heilman: It’s something I don’t think about. This is like an onsight. I’m in the flow. I have to take notes because I completely forget what we talk about. This might sound really cheesy to people. Well actually – I went skiing with the first woman to ski Mount Everest this last weekend. First meeting and she was super lovely. She said, “When you ski the mountain you have to ski with your heart. Your heart has to lead.” 

I was like, ‘Totally. That’s how my relationship with my clients is. If their heart is open, my heart is open and I can speak on that level, not just from an intellectual level,’ if that makes sense. If people are just so intellectual then I hit walls. You have to be open enough and receptive enough for me to listen and hear and ask questions.

Neely Quinn: Which takes years of practice. You’ve been doing this for how many years?

Doctor Chris Heilman: Professionally a decade but I started as an athletic trainer, working with athletes, so I’ve worked with athletes for my whole professional career, so since I was 18 in school. I went back to school for sports psychology because I could teach these athletes all of these physical things like going to your physical therapist but it was really the mental and emotional part that I found was my gift. Like how do you return back to play confidently after an injury? How do you deal with your injury when it feels like your life has been sideswiped? That just kept showing up for me. 

Neely Quinn: That topic is actually something that somebody requested for us to do a podcast about. I think that now that you’re a part of the team we should do some more podcasts, even if they’re short ones, on little topics like that. If people have suggestions or things that you guys want to hear about just email me at neely@trainingbeta.com or info@trainingbeta.com. We’ll try to accommodate that.

Doctor Chris Heilman: That sounds great. I would have one request: maybe try to be specific and give an example. If it’s like, ‘How do you help me with performance anxiety?’ I don’t know. When I was an athletic trainer it was like, ‘Help me with my knee. Something is wrong with my knee. What do I do?’ My response was, “You should just ice it. You gave me a general question so I’m going to give you a general answer.” 

My request is if we did something like that, be specific about it.

Neely Quinn: I’m thinking specifically about this email where this girl is like, ‘I have this specific injury and I’m having a really hard time staying motivated to train at all. How do you stay motivated and what do you do?’ We don’t have to go into that right now but that’s just an example of a specific question, I’m assuming.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Exactly. That’s like, ‘Here is my experience. What do I do?’ I think just to quickly answer that would be to listen to this podcast. You could have the triple A approach for something like that. I am in pain. It’s probably normal that I should have some pain. What do I want to do about it? 

Maybe I would give that person some type of imagery like the pain is really red and hot, just like we did with our emotions. Let it be really red and hot and then maybe use a color blue and let it be really soothing. On the inhale let it be red and hot and on the exhale let it be blue and really soothing and let that wash away. Maybe the tension melts like butter, but do some kind of imagery because the mind/body connection is so powerful. People can heal a lot faster when they’re using their mind to help their healing. 

Neely Quinn: So you wouldn’t just be like, ‘Here is emotionally how to deal with not being able to do all the things that you want to do.’ You would help them maybe even ease the pain.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Yeah, it depends on where they’re at and where they’re going. I don’t know where that person is but that’s what popped into my head right now.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, we don’t even think about that as an option or something we have any control over.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Jon Kabat-Zinn, who’s the grandfather of mindfulness in the United States, did that with people with psoriasis. They had a control group and they go into a light box for psoriasis and then they have another one where they have imagery of their psoriasis healing while they were in the light box for 15 minutes. The people who listened to the imagery healed four times faster.

Neely Quinn: Woah. That’s fast.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Those are conversations for next time.

Neely Quinn: Cool. Where can people find you on social media?

Doctor Chris Heilman: @mindsetdr

Neely Quinn: Your business website is…?

Doctor Chris Heilman: mindset-coach.com

Neely Quinn: So you see people there and now you’re seeing people on TrainingBeta. You can find her at trainingbeta.com/mindset. 

Thank you so much for talking with me today. I look forward to talking to you more regularly now. If anybody has any questions you can also email Chris at chris@trainingbeta.com. Thanks so much for your wisdom.

Doctor Chris Heilman: Thank you, and thanks for being vulnerable. That’s not an easy thing to do so now your listeners get to know you a bit better. 

Neely Quinn: A lot better. Thanks for drawing it out of me. I’ll talk to you soon.

Doctor Chris Heilman: See ya.

Neely Quinn: Thanks so much for listening to that interview/session. I’m feeling a little exposed, I guess, because now you know a lot about how I work and that’s not a super comfortable place to be however, I think that we aren’t vulnerable enough with each other. I think that being vulnerable creates connection and understanding so those are the reasons that I gave myself for being willing to do this interview. I hope that it helped you in some way. I do think that a lot of us struggle with some really similar things in climbing so hopefully you took something away from that.

Again, if you want to work with Doctor Chris you can do that by going to trainingbeta.com/mindset.

Coming up for me, I will be in Vegas starting in three days. I’m really psyched about that because it’s 12° in Colorado and I’ll be climbing a little bit so if you see me at the crag, please say, “Hi.” I’ll be publishing podcasts every other week. 

I’m also working on a big nutrition program that I hope to have out early summer/late spring. I’ll keep you updated on that as it progresses. 

We’re also working hard on creating new training programs. The ones that we have are great but we think that some of the information could be updated so stay tuned for that hopefully in the summer or late spring.

Those are my announcements for the day. Thanks for listening all the way to the end. You can find us on social media @trainingbeta and I’ll talk to you in a couple weeks. 

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