[laughter]

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, I know, that’s most people’s reaction. I know, its quite different from anything I’ve ever done, but it’s probably the thing that I’ve enjoyed the most out of all the sports that I’ve done. It’s physically challenging, and mentally challenging, both humbling and empowering at the same time.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I mean I’ve heard good things about it. I think I tried one class and I got injured in that class, like 15 years ago, and I was like “I’m never doing this again!”.

[laughter]

Neely Quinn: Because it’s really physical, right?

Shannon O’Grady: It’s really physical. I mean the people that are really good, and they say it’s more of a flow, a gentle art- Jiu Jitsu actually means “gentle art”. The better you get at it, I think most people that start out try to power through a lot of the moves, and the better you get the less you have to do that.

Neely Quinn: Yeah. Well that’s cool. It’s actually really cool that your background is in so many different sports, because you’ve probably experimented with a lot of different supplements and a lot of different dietary programs or whatever, or types of eating to fuel all these kinds of activities, and they’re so different from each other.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah you know actually I’ve always been interested in nutrition, and the overlap between nutrition and performance, but it was through triathlon training, and training for Iron Man, and graduate school that I really got interested into looking into the science behind it. Research and science had always been a huge thing for me, and combining that, and the enjoyment of that with the need to really focus on nutrition to actually put your training to use… just yeah. It was a calling for me.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, so did you say you had the opportunity to actually do research on those kinds of things?

Shannon O’Grady: I did a post-doc after I finished my doctorate on basically the use of water in the human body, and actually using the isotopes to track water metabolism in the human body. Then worked on some modeling of that, to create predictive models for how water is used.

Neely Quinn: Did it have anything to do with athletes or sports?

Shannon O’Grady: It was a range of individuals, so looking at how active someone is and whether than impacted water metabolism, what their diet was and how that impacted water metabolism. Activity and athletics was just one portion of what I did. It was kind of in the grander scheme of things, of how humans use water.

Neely Quinn: Did you find anything surprising through those studies?

Shannon O’Grady: Nothing too surprising, just basically looking at what the major determining factors were. As we would guess, athletics speeds up how water is metabolized. Diet in terms of how much water content you actually take in, in terms of the foods you eat, and how that also impacts water, was super interesting.

Neely Quinn: Cool. And then did you do any other research on diet type stuff? Or anything like that in school?

Shannon O’Grady: Not in humans, no.

Neely Quinn: Which animals did you do?

Shannon O’Grady: I actually, for my doctorate thesis, I looked at kind of physiological- so- adaptations, in terms of how different animals deal with herbivory or carnivory, so whether they eat plants or whether they eat insects, or animals, or a mixture, and different morphological traits that they have for one diet versus another. And then different behaviors that go along with one diet or another. Just looking at kind of interesting scenarios in terms of that.

There’s this really amazing lizard that lives in high deserts of Argentina, that by all accounts everybody would assume is an insectivore and only eats insects, but is actually an herbivore. So looking at how they are able to do that, what they do in terms of behavior, and also other adaptations that they have that allow them to survive on a plant diet. Yeah, so I got to go to Argentina for a month and a half, and that was amazing, and get to work with some really amazing animals.

Neely Quinn: That’s really cool.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah.

Neely Quinn: That sounds like my dream job actually.

[laughter]

Cool. But through school, it seems like one of the major things you gained was the ability to really understand the research out there, and really understand the human body, and maybe be able to put that to use in your job and Gnarly, where you have to be on top of what these supplements can and can’t do for us, is that right?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, I definitely think that the skill of being able to look at a study, pull away the major conclusions, but also critically look at the study and determine whether or not it’s a worthwhile study, whether it’s done right, whether the conclusions that the researchers are coming to are founded. That was a skill that I gained working with athletes. I’ve done some training of endurance athletes, whether it be for endurance running or for longer triathlons, and seeing what worked for them and what didn’t. Then just guineapig-ing myself out and seeing what worked for me personally. I think all of those things have really helped me in the position I am in now.

I also spent a lot of time working when I moved from academia, working in the supplement industry, and in manufacturing. Learning a lot about FDA regulations in dietary supplements, and what really needs to go in, in terms of making a quality supplement. Looking critically at the ingredients that you put into a product, the testing that needs to be done on products. All those things, I think, got me ready to really contribute to Gnarly in a positive way.

Neely Quinn: Cool. I’m really excited to talk to you about a few things, but- because I’m super interested in supplements as a nutritionist, I take supplements, and I’ve always recommended them. It’s really hard to figure out what is a good supplement and what is a bad supplement. Coming form that industry, can we talk a little bit about that?

Shannon O’Grady: Oh yeah I’d love to.

Neely Quinn: So what you think is good and what people should look for.

Shannon O’Grady: I think there is a major misconception out there that the supplement industry isn’t regulated. I’d say that it isn’t regulated as well as it could be, but the FDA does actually regulate supplement manufacturing. That is for purity, label claim accuracy. Supplement manufacturers that are doing what they should do, should be testing the ingredients that go into their products, should be making sure that manufacturing is done well, so that the product isn’t contaminated, and should be testing the product at the end of manufacturing, to make sure that it meets label claim, that it’s microlevels are where they should be, and that heavy metals are low. The sad part is that there are a lot of supplement manufacturers out there, and that the issue with the FDA is a bandwidth issue. The FDA doesn’t have enough time or people to check into these supplement manufacturers, so a lot of the industry gets a bad name because of people who take advantage of the system.

Neely Quinn: Right- it seems like a lot of companies might be testing, might not be, but if they do find stuff that’s wrong with their supplements in their resting, they’re not necessarily reporting it. What I’ve found- and tell me if I’m wrong here- is that a lot of the good companies are hiring third parties to test for them. That costs money but it really ensures good quality.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, what an ideal supplement manufacturer or distributor do… manufacturers are required to test their product for label claim before they pass them off, because they have to make sure that the product is not adulterated. So a brand that is getting a product from a manufacturer has to, you know, look and decide whether or not their product meets those requirements for label claim, but they also have to make sure that the manufacturer is telling the truth. We, at Gnarly, go through a vendor qualification process, and a vendor audit, where we send all the test results that a manufacturer gives is to a third party lab, to make sure that the test results are accurate.

Neely Quinn: So they’re actually testing the product for you.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, so the manufacturer tests the product, and we send that same lot of product to a lab, to basically double check and make sure that we can trust the results they give us. We don’t so that on every lot, because it’s cost prohibitive, but we do it randomly to make sure that yeah, when they say there are five grams of creatine in the product, that yes in fact there are five grams of creatine in the product. When they say that microlevels are to this point, that yes, that is accurate. Too many people just trust the C of As they get from manufacturers, and really, without verifying those results you can’t do that.

Neely Quinn: So what are the kinds of things they are looking for? Heavy metals, or just the stuff not being in it when they say it is, or what?

Shannon O’Grady: It depends. So manufacturers have to test for label claims, to make sure the product meet. The FDA requires of 100% of label claim. In the case of botanicals, that’s a little bit different because of natural variation. They have to make sure that they product meets heavy metal levels, and because of regulations in California, those levels are a little stricter than some people would like. They’re basically looking for levels of lead, mercury, arsenic, and cadmium. Then they are testing for an array of microbes, to make sure that what we are taking in isn’t going to make us sick. Obviously we see that all the time in the food industry with things infected with E.coli, so that’s particularly important.

Neely Quinn: Okay, that’s cool. So your stuff is clean [laughs].

Shannon O’Grady: Yes [laughs].

Neely Quinn: Your stuff is clean and it’s not going to hurt us.

Shannon O’Grady: It is. We wouldn’t release it if it weren’t.

Neely Quinn: Okay. So Gnarly is- you guys kind of focus on mountain sports athletes, right?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, I think, you know when Gnarly started, that the founders had roots in mountain sports, and so that was what they knew. A lot of the people that work at Gnarly and use Gnarly enjoy their time in the mountains and use our products there.

Neely Quinn: And it’s for all kinds of athletes- can you tell me what kind of athletes you guys have as customers?

Shannon O’Grady: Sure. I think it’s a wide range, which is probably the most fun part. I love seeing when people tag us on Instagram and see what people are getting after. We have people that exclusively spend their time in the gym, we have a lot of moms that are looking to get back into shape but don’t have a lot of time, and are doing programs at home hat use Gnarly. We have ultra runners, mountain bikers, a lot of climbers, I love our relationship with the climbing industry. We always say that it’s a mutual love. A lot of skiers, just basically the whole gamut of mountain sports.

Neely Quinn: So what do you think are the most important supplements for- well let’s just talk about climbers. What do you think are the most important supplements for climbers?

Shannon O’Grady: In the Gnarly line, or in general?

Neely Quinn: I think in general- let’s start with in general.

Shannon O’Grady: I think hydration is a super huge important thing to focus on, in terms of tendon health, ligament health, and just health and performance in general. I think a lot of people don’t think of hydration as the most… because it’s not linked directly to performance. Like, take X and you will be able to do this Y better. It gets kind of displaced. But that’s the first place I start when I talk to athletes, I make sure ethyl are hydrating and eating well, before I recommend any supplements.

Neely Quinn: Cool- can you go further into that? Especially since you did a study on this. Ho much water do you think people should be drinking, and how else can they hydrate, like with other supplements?

Shannon O’Grady: It really depends on the person and like we talked about briefly before, how active they are. The more active you are, the more you need to drink, but it also gets down to how much you as an individual sweat. I always joke about being a sweater, and getting what people joke about being “weakness marks”, or the white salt that you see. If you are someone that gets those when you are highly active, chances are that you are losing more salt, and your salt intake needs to be higher.

There are two kinds of realms of hydration. One is just water intake, and the other is electrolyte replenishment. Generally, I recommend that people drink water all day. If they’re thirsty they should be drinking water, not soda or juice, but I think climbers are generally healthy individuals so you don’t see too much of that anyways. But drinking as much water as possible. If you are highly active, you need to watch out about drinking just water versus drinking electrolytes because of the risk of hyponatremia, and that’s where supplementing with products that have increased sodium content that bring those salt levels up is important. And a lot of electrolyte products have the range- they have magnesium and calcium as well, but sodium is really the major electrolyte you lose in you sweat, and that’s the main electrolyte to pay attention to.

Neely Quinn: So that’s the main one- because you guys have an electrolyte formula. The Hydrate, right?

Shannon O’Grady: We do, and it has magnesium and calcium in it as well, and it also have a trace mineral mix. Those are helpful and you do lose them to a small percentage in sweat, but sodium is really the main thing that you have to worry about.

Neely Quinn: So how much sodium is actually in a serving?

Shannon O’Grady: Currently in the product, it’s 180 milligrams in one serving of Hydrate. We are actually reformulating it and upping it to 225 milligrams. That’s in a 10 gram serving of Hydrate.

Neely Quinn: It’s a powder, right?

Shannon O’Grady: Correct.

Neely Quinn: And you put it in water. So that’s what I was wondering about. When I look at these numbers, and a lot of the hydration electrolyte supplements out there are way lower in sodium, even than that. But when you’re considering that you are taking in 2000-3000 milligrams a day of sodium, that’s really not that much. What do you think about that?

Shannon O’Grady: So, I mean, it’s how often you take it and I guess how long your exercising as well. I start worrying about replenishing with electrolytes when I’m working out for time periods that are in the 45 minute or longer range. Looking at your loss- so I’m a heavy sweater- versus someone that doesn’t sweat a lot, that’s going to impact how quickly you have to take that. Generally, I try to get between 200-300 of milligrams in one serving, so over the course of an hour.

Neely Quinn: Okay. So you’ll drink it while you’re doing Jiu Jitsu or doing a run or something?

Shannon O’Grady: Jiu Jitsu would fall into the 45 minutes or less range. It’s pretty hard to- I guess you can do it between matches- but on runs, yes. Especially if I’m going on a long run that’s in the hour and a half plus range, I’m drinking and electrolyte solution as opposed to drinking just water.

Neely Quinn: It seems like with climbers it’s something that would be really good if they’re walking long distances to get to climbing areas or if they’re climbing all day. What are your recommendations?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, exactly that. If you have a long approach to a climbing area, be drinking an electrolyte solution on your way up there. Gnarly is similar to Scratch Labs and other products that kind of focus on hydration as opposed to calorie intake, so that’s another separator. If you mix the two, if you’re looking to try to take in calories at the same time as you are taking in electrolytes or water, they’re kind of competing against each other. We focus on just getting the electrolytes and the hydration to you, and recommend that you get calories from carbs in either real food or another supplement. Climbers that are on a long approach should definitely hydrate with an electrolyte solution, but should also be aware of carbohydrate usage on the way there, and be snacking on something else.

Neely Quinn: Because the hydrate solution doesn’t have any carbohydrates in it?

Shannon O’Grady: It has a little bit of sugar, because a little bit of sugar actually helps with sodium transport in the gut. Most of our products are sweetened with Stevia, Monk Fruit, and Erythritol, but we’ve actually included a little bit of sugar in that product because it improves the absorption of electrolytes in the gut.

Neely Quinn: Can you explain with Monk Fruit is?

Shannon O’Grady: Sure- the name is actually Luo Hong Guo, and it’s just similar to Stevia. It’s a plant based sweetener. It’s a non-caloric sweetener.

Neely Quinn: Okay. Yeah, I’d love for you to tell us what you recommend in terms of carbohydrate intake when you’re exercising. How many grams do yo like to get in what period of time?

Shannon O’Grady: Sure. Most of my experience is kind of in the endurance realm, but I think it applies for climbers that are out for a long day, or generally working on a project all day. I consider that an endurance exercise, even though there are bouts of power in there, you’re still expending energy over the course of a long period of time. I generally recommend in the range of 150-300 calories per hour, of carbohydrate. That’s a huge range, but that’s because the ability of people to absorb that carbohydrate differs greatly. I’ve worked with athletes that are able to take in 300 calories of carbs in an hour an a half no problem, but I’ve worked with athletes that have had their gut shut down and incur bloat because they can’t process that much. I put that range out there with the idea that there is some self-experimentation that has to go on to determine what works for you.

I generally like to use starches, so I use a lot of sweet potatoes and potatoes, and that’s because the absorption of those starches is really fast. It’s a really quick, fast acting carbohydrate, and it’s really easily digestible for most people.

Neely Quinn: Okay and just going back- when you said 150-300 calories per hour, that equals 40-75 grams of carbs per hour, of intense work, pretty much.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, I mean, that even for an ultra endurance runner that is operating at lower intensity but for longer periods of time, the key is to be consistent. You never want to have a huge drop in your blood sugar. I often recommend to people, like you’re not going to eat all of those calories at once. I set a timer on my watch and try to fuel every 15-20 minutes and just be consistent about it. I break that up over that hour, so that my body is getting a consistent stream of carbohydrates and I stay fueled.

Neely Quinn: What about with climbing? I mean, realistically. In a person’s climbing day, what would you expect, and are you eating sweet potatoes and potatoes when you’re running and climbing, or what are you doing?

Shannon O’Grady: That’s going to differ depending on what kind of climbing you do. My husband loves to do longer multipitch routes. For him, getting a steady influx of calories is important, but also not possible when you’re the one leading. It’s going to get a little more abbreviated, but when you’re at a belay station switching over, at that point, you know, you should be also taking in nutrition. Products like Gu and things like that work really well too, but I think in cases like that, you want more than just that concentrated sugar going into your gut. Types of foods that are a little bit more complex, have a little bit more fiber, maybe a little bit of fat in there, are going to be really important and useful over the course of the long day. Eat as often as it is convenient, but be consistent and try not to take huge long gaps in that fueling.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I think that’s a mistake a lot of climbers make when they’re out climbing, whether they’re doing multipitch or not, they just forget to eat, or they don’t bring a decent meal, or all they have is nuts and fruit. I have my own suggestions for what people should do, but really what kinds of food should people be eating when they’re out climbing?

Shannon O’Grady: I can tell you what I eat- I have a pretty varied diet. I try to eat mostly whole foods, I supplement where I can, when it’s convenient. Things like bananas, almond butter, good sources of protein whether that is beef jerky, sweet potatoes and even regular potatoes is great. Whole foods like that, I think. Carbohydrates are underused because there’s been this big surge in terms of using a lot of protein. I think they’re so important when you’re looking at performance, and especially when you’re looking at power performance. Really focusing on getting healthy carbohydrate sources is key.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, plus the protein and the fat to give you all the energy that you need.

Shannon O’Grady: Definitely, and to keep you satiated. Going all in any direction is not a good idea, but you know, as a society we over consume carbs and we over consume the wrong types of carbs. Getting fat and protein to both improve performance but also to keep us satiated so that we’re not consuming tons of carbohydrates at irregular intervals is really important.

Neely Quinn: Totally, yeah. I think bringing real food and real meals and tupperware to climbing areas of your leftovers is extremely important and it really helps my clients to have more energy. So yeah, cool, we’re on the same page about that. Um, where were we. We were talking about how much sugar, the hydration product…

Shannon O’Grady: You had asked me about supplements for climbers, and it started with hydration as kind of an important thing that I don’t think a lot of people focus on. I can chat a little bit more about other supplements that can be of benefit for climbers.

Neely Quinn: Yes, please.

Shannon O’Grady: Okay, so beta alanine is a big one, I think, that there is a lot of research on that it can be… there’s not necessarily a lot of research on climbing specifically, but the research that has been done suggests that it can be beneficial for climbing. Beta alanine, you actually take it in and it increases muscle carnosine levels. Carnosine is a buffer in muscle that actually brings down acidosis, or the drop in pH that can be associated- you know a lot of people throw around the term lactic acid- but basically the increase in hydrogen ions in your muscles. So carnosine is not the only thing that does that, but it definitely helps a lot.

A lot of research shows that when you do take beta alanine, you increase muscle carnosine and you help buffer that pH. And then you also get some other benefits in terms of muscle relaxation and increased blood flow to muscles. It could really help with pump, over the course of a long climb, and also blood flow to forearms, and help kind of with sport climbing and probably longer routes in general. Maybe not bouldering so much, because it’s such a short powerful form of climbing.

Neely Quinn: Is it sort of- oh? Right, right. What is beta alanine?

Shannon O’Grady: Beta alanine is an amino acid. It’s, well- it’s a combination. It is one of two compounds that actually make carnosine, but it’s the rate limiting factor in that. A lot of supplements will just have carnosine in them, but carnosine is actually- taking carnosine directly is a poor way to elevate muscle carnosine levels, when compared with increasing beta alanine, which is that rate limiting precursor.

Neely Quinn: Okay, and is that in any of your products?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, so we just came out with a pre-workout that has beta alanine in it. So beta alanine- people always ask about side effects, and it has a side effect called parasthesia, which is basically tingling in the face and in the extremities. The dose in our product is much lower than an effective dose of beta alanine, because- I don’t know if you’ve ever taken too much niacin or gotten that flushing feeling, but it’s very much like that. It’s really uncomfortable. If we were to include the dose that is used in most studies, which is more around the 6 gram range, it would just be too uncomfortable, too unbearable to even take. We have a gram and a half in our pre-workout, with the idea that to get that effective dose, you take more than one dose in a single day, separated by 2-3 hours. Beta alanine, as it increases muscle carnosine, it builds up those levels in your body. It takes a loading phase to get those levels up over time anyways.

Neely Quinn: So would you say that if you don’t take four dosages of it, will it just not be effective?

Shannon O’Grady: Over time it would be effective.

Neely Quinn: You mean over days and weeks?

Shannon O’Grady: Over weeks, yes. And then to still take the maximum benefit, you would do a loading phase anyways, and then drop down to maintenance phase. It’s similar to creatine in that you see the benefit the more you take, and the longer you take it.

Neely Quinn: Okay. Do you guys have in your literature- like if someone was to buy your pre-workout product, would it say “This is how you do the loading phase, this is how you do the maintenance phase”?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah we just released it in March, so I’m currently working on that literature to put up on our website.

Neely Quinn: Okay [laughs].

Shannon O’Grady: So it’s a great question.

Neely Quinn: So you’re working on it. But for now, what would you say people should do, in general?

Shannon O’Grady: So for now, our product has a gram and a half in it You start getting the paresthesia feeling around the 800 milligram dosages of beta alanine. I would say try a dose and see how it feels. I’ve heard from most people that they definitely get a tingling, but that it’s not uncomfortable. So if that dose is fine for you, I would say waiting 2-3 hours between doses, so you’re not having the beta alanine and the tingling building upon itself, you cover from the previous does in 2-3 hours and then taking another dose, and then starting there.

Neely Quinn: Do that for every day you work out, every day even if you don’t work out?

Shannon O’Grady: If you’re really looking to load on beta alanine, I would recommend even doing it when you’re not working out. We have a lot of people that just use it as a pre-workout for the other ingredients that are included in the product, which include citruline malate and BCAAs, so those in of themselves have benefits that you don’t have to load with. People use the products in different ways. But if you’re using it primarily as a beta alanine supplement, you want to take it every day.

Neely Quinn: And then when would you drop down to a maintenance phase?

Shannon O’Grady: I’d say after a week, week to two weeks you can drop down to maintenance phase.

Neely Quinn: Which would be how much?

Shannon O’Grady: 1-2 doses a day, so about 3 grams per day.

Neely Quinn: Okay. And what other supplements would you recommend for climbers?

Shannon O’Grady: Depending on the type of climbing that you do, creatine is great, if you’re kind of more in the bouldering realm, or the sport climb that you’re working on is a shorter power route. Creatine boosts phosphocreatine, which helps with ATP recycling in the muscle. ATP is kind of responsible for the first 1-3 seconds of energy generation and muscle engagement. Increasing phosphocreatine stores by taking in supplemental creatine increases the contribution of ATP to that generation. It takes that 1-3 seconds and can increase it up to about 10 seconds. There’s been so much research on the efficacy of creatine and the safety of creatine. I think that and caffeine are probably the most proven ergogenic aids in terms of sports performance, and creatine specifically with power efforts.

Neely Quinn: What do you know about creatine causing basically water retention in muscles, so making people gain weight?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah so it definitely does that. It varies depending on the person. From what I’ve read and from talking with athletes that use it, it seems like that ranges from 1-2% of water gain. If that is a huge worry, what I typically recommend for people to do is use creatine during a training phase, or even when you’re working on a problem prior to actually focusing on getting it done. Then maybe 2-3 weeks before you’re planning on doing that, stop the creatine, and some of that weight will come off during that time period.

Neely Quinn: But when you stop the creatine, do you just completely not get any of the benefits of it?

Shannon O’Grady: So you may stop the creatine and you might not get that increased ATP, but if you use it during training, you benefit from the muscle growth that has occurred, if that makes sense. So you’re not getting the ATP generation and potentially that increased power during that movement, but you’ve gained strength but training with it. Does that make sense?

Neely Quinn: Yeah. Do you guys have a product with creatine in it?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, we have Pump, which has creatine and it also has citruline malate and arginine in it, which are meant to boost nitrous oxide and increase blood flow by dilating vessels. It also has a little bit of caffeine in it. That’s primary… most people that take that product take it primarily for the creatine.

Neely Quinn: Okay, so do you have nay other supplements you would recommend.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah [laughs].

Neely Quinn: There are like a million of them, I know.

Shannon O’Grady: I’m a big- I mean obviously I contributed to the blog post- but I’m a big fan of branched chain amino acids. I can talk a little bit about that.

Neely Quinn: Please.

Shannon O’Grady: BCAAs, you know, they are amino acids that are treated a little bit differently in the body. They go, as opposed to being deanimated or broken down in the liver, they go straight to the skeletal muscle. There’s been tons of research done on branch chain amino acids and their ability- primarily leucine, but research done on all three- isoleucine and valine being the other two. But their ability to stimulate protein synthesis and kind of stop protein breakdown.

This is research in athletics, but it’s also research in muscle wasting diseases and in the elderly that might not get the nutrition that they should on a daily basis. What they found is that BCAAs can actually stimulate muscle protein synthesis, as well as protein. Whey protein naturally is high is BCAAs, and it’s a great source of BCAAs. The difference is that whey protein and other proteins have to go through digestion, and therefore you may not be getting the full amount of BCAAs that are there just naturally occurring amino acids in whey protein, and you might not be getting them as quickly.

While eating whole proteins is definitely my first recommendation, I think that if you are looking for ways to really improve recovery, supplementing with BCAAs before and during workouts. I recommend to everyone, following up in the hour after your workout or your climb, with a good source of protein and carbohydrates and fat, is the best way to quicken recovery and reduce soreness, and be able to go at it the next day.

Neely Quinn: So they would take a full dose before their work out, a full dose during their workout, is that right?

Shannon O’Grady: Well, what I do personally is take a dose- I mix up our BCAAs 10-15 minutes before the workout, and then that always carries into the workout. I don’t mix up another dose during the workout, I just make sure I’m following up with protein. I think if your workouts are getting into the 2+ hour range, then yes, you might do that. If you’re in the 1-1 1/2 hour range, just one dose, which is in most supplements about 5 grams of combine branched chain amino acids, is great.

Neely Quinn: Okay. It’s crazy- my husband was for a while taking a dose before, a dose during, and a dose after. He injured his finger, and he thinks it’s because he got so strong, and he was climbing super hard. Something about how his muscles got stronger than his tendons could keep up with. Do you have anything to say about that?

Shannon O’Grady: I know nothing about that [laughs].

Neely Quinn: Okay [laughs]. This is totally anecdotal, I just thought I would bring it up.

Shannon O’Grady: What I hear from most people- you know, you definitely hear stories of increased energy and things like that. Branched chain amino acids, although your muscles do use that for energy, it’s really minimal compared to other energy sources- carbohydrates. But what I do hear from most people is that you get a decrease in muscle soreness, or what they call DOMS- delayed onset muscle soreness. For me it always hits two days after, and that’s when I’m most sore. A lot of people that haven’t supplemented with BCAAs and start, that’s really where you see the main benefit.

It’s a major question- protein or BCAAs? Do you really need BCAAs? For me, taking the dose right before I work out, knowing that within 30 minutes you’re getting peak levels of BCAAs, you’re getting those levels higher, and I’m not taking in a huge heavy protein shake or any kind of meal, works best for me. And then I always follow it up with protein afterwards. I think that’s the benefit of BCAAs, is it’s fast, it’s quick, you know you’re getting a dose, and it’s pretty light on your stomach.

Neely Quinn: Well that’s what I was going to ask actually. Do you find any side effects from BCAAs? Some of the studies say that it causes bloating, gas, and discomfort.

Shannon O’Grady: I personally have never had that, and I haven’t heard that from any of our customers or any friends that take it.

Neely Quinn: Whoa, that is saying a lot actually. That is not what I was expecting you to say.

Shannon O’Grady: I don’t know if- so we use vegan BCAAs in our product. Although this is where I kind of started and I’ve talked to a couple of chemists that I know at the U about this. Most products, not all of them, but a lot of products out there use branched chain amino acids that are derived from duck feathers. Although an amino acid is an amino acid, right, whether they’re from duck feathers or the fermentation of glucose, leucine chemically looks like leucine. In solution, the BCAAs behave much differently. I’ve even had- the chemist that I am talking about is really active and she’s used products that are derived from both. She, being an [unclear], is the only person that I know. But she says that the results that she gets with the vegan BCAAs are head over heels relative to the duck feather BCAAs. I don’t know if that has more to do with purity, but typically, if you’re not absorbing something, that’s when you start having digestive issues or bloat.

Neely Quinn: That is so interesting. You would just think that an amino acid is an amino acid.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah it’s crazy, because you can tell the difference by putting them in a solution and shaking them. So, BCAAs that aren’t vegan and are derived from duck feathers, when you shake them up they get super foamy. It’s even evident just by doing that test. There’s something going on above and beyond the content of the BCAAs, and my only thought is that potentially absorption is lower for some reason, and that could be causing the bloat. But I’ve never had anyone tell me that they have digestion issues, at least from our product.

Neely Quinn: I’m dying to know where you guys derive it from.

Shannon O’Grady: Oh yeah sure, it’s glucose fermentation.

Neely Quinn: From what?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah sure. I’m not exactly sure where they get the glucose from-

Neely Quinn: Probably corn, I’m assuming.

Shannon O’Grady: No it’s not. Our products are non-GMO, so most of what you would classically say is a corn derived ingredient, we source from tapioca. I haven’t actually seen where the glucose comes from in that product, but I know it’s non-GMO.

Neely Quinn: Um, we can probably do this for like three hours, but are there other supplements you want to talk about?

Shannon O’Grady: Those are the big ones. I mean obviously protein, but I feel like most listeners are fairly educated on protein. I can answer any questions that you might have. I feel like that subject is really well covered.

Neely Quinn: Well I have some questions actually, because one of my biggest complaints about protein powder is that they’re just protein. I know that sounds really stupid, but sometimes you don’t want just protein, and a lot of people are using these as supplemental meals. So it’s just protein, and I wish that there were more carbs in a lot of these products. Can you tell me about yours and what your thoughts are on that?

Shannon O’Grady: Sure. Yeah, so you, Neely, wouldn’t be happy with the carb content of our protein. The main reason why we designed the products the way we do, so using natural sweeteners and keeping the carb content low- Gnarly really is trying to make our products usable for the majority of the population. People really feel strongly about the amount of carbs they’re getting and where their carbs come from. We like putting that control into the hands of the consumer.

It’s also the reason why all our products that are not dairy based are vegan. Why do we not use BCAAs from duck feathers, other than they may not be absorbed as well? It’s because we want vegans to feel like they can use our products. We’re kind of doing the same thing with carbs, in that if somebody is following a really strict kind of macro diet and they want to control the amount of carbohydrates that they’re getting, then they have that control because we aren’t putting in there for them.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, I totally get that. A lot of the time I’ll tell people to put juice in it, or honey, or blend it up with a banana. What are your suggestions for that?

Shannon O’Grady: Exactly. Either adding whole fruits, blueberries, bananas, add a juice, or if that’s too sweet I usually recommend almond juice and fruit. But yeah, those are my exact recommendations. We do have two products that are a little- I mean the carbohydrate content is still relatively low- but our Feast, which is our whey based meal replacement, and we have a vegan meal replacement- they have a lot more dietary fiber, a little bit more fat, a higher calorie content. Those are options for people who are looking for a more well rounded supplement.

Neely Quinn: What are your thoughts about whey based as opposed to the vegan ones? Can you tell me about how well we assimilate those proteins, and any side effects that you see in either of them?

Shannon O’Grady: Whey is obviously the best- I mean it’s highly assimilated by the body. On top of that it goes into a solution really well and tastes great, so that’s what I recommend to people hands down, unless they have some kind of dietary restriction- ether lactose intolerant or a preference not to eat animal matter. Then I recommend the vegan. Our vegan is a combination of three vegan proteins, the primary one being pea protein isolate. It’s pretty well assimilated. There have been more studies on soy protein, but for what I mentioned before, us trying make products that the majority of people can use, we keep soy out of our products. Pea protein, I think digestively and in terms of assimilation, have a pretty good track record.

Neely Quinn: And what are the other two that are in there?

Shannon O’Grady: Cranberry seed protein and chia see protein.

Neely Quinn: Interesting. A lot of the times I find that people have digestive issues with vegan proteins. Do you see that with your people?

Shannon O’Grady: Um, not so much. I’ve had three people that I work with that they have issues with whey and I switched them to the vegan, and they were happy. They digested it well, and they still felt like they were getting the benefit. I see that less with the vegan. More with the whey, just because I think the commonality of lactose intolerance, whether or not people realize that they have that later on in life as soon as they increase whey use, especially if it’s whey protein concentrate, then they might see it more.

Neely Quinn: Being whey, it shouldn’t really have any lactose in it. Does it have lactose in it? A lot of the time people have a sensitivity to the protein whey, but not necessarily a lactose intolerance.

Shannon O’Grady: Whey protein concentrate actually does have lactose in it. Whey protein concentrate is about 80% protein and it’s less processed.  You get a lot of nutritional cofactors that can be helpful with muscle building, but along with that, in that 20%, you also get lactose. Whey protein isolate, which is usually about 90% protein, still has a little bit of lactose in it, but much much less. Most people that are lactose intolerant can actually handle whey protein isolate. Gnarly uses whey protein concentrate, so people that are hypersensitive to lactose do have some issues. We do include a digestive enzyme blend that also has lactase in it, so we have had some people that are lactose intolerant that say they do fine with our protein, but it all depends on the person, like most things.

Neely Quinn: This is fascinating, I didn’t actually know that. I always thought that whey was supposed to not have lactose in it, but maybe it had a tiny bit, but I didn’t know the percentages. That’s really good for people to know.

Shannon O’Grady: Good.

Neely Quinn: What kinds of things do you see people have problems- or sorry- what kinds of symptoms do you see people have when they do have problems with it?

Shannon O’Grady: Digestive issues. I think relative to- you know- flatulence for lack of a better word, diarrhea, increased bowel movements, and just gut upset and bloat.

Neely Quinn: Okay.  The other big thing I have with protein powders is the source. So where does your whey come from?

Shannon O’Grady: We get our whey from New Zealand, from grass fed cows. Primarily the reason why we source it from New Zealand, is the GMO regulations and control over GMOs in the food chain there. It pretty much guarantees that we are getting a clean product.

Neely Quinn: Okay. Why is that important to you guys? I mean it’s awesome, I love it. Why is it important to you guys?

Shannon O’Grady: Because we believe in putting quality- I think each of us individually believes in putting quality, high nutrient dense foods into our bodies. It’s something that we all do. So why wouldn’t we create a product like that for everybody else? I really, really believe that nutrition, and good nutrition, could help a lot of people. So creating a product that more people can use and feel good about, and feel good while they’re taking it, is important to put out there.

Neely Quinn: Can you tell me exactly what- maybe you can’t tell me exactly- but what the differences are nutritionally between whey protein that comes from factory farmed cows in China compared to this grass fed whey?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah so first off, I’ll say that this matters more because we use whey protein concentrate. The more you process whey protein, you get just protein. If we are not talking about environmental reasons, which are important in their own right- the impact of factory farms on the cows, on the people that consume the meat, on the overuse of antibiotics, and antibiotic resistance in the world- those are important issues and a reason in of itself. But if we are looking at just the nutritional reasons, whey protein concentrate has the 20% that isn’t protein that has nutritional cofactors that has fatty acids. Getting fatty acids from a source that is grass fed and therefore getting more omega 3 fatty acids, getting higher conjugated linoleic acid, which research has shown is increased in milk and meat from grass fed cows- those are the primary reasons.

Neely Quinn: Have you guys ever tested the nutrient levels of your whey protein?

Shannon O’Grady: No, not of our whey protein. That’s a great idea. We haven’t.

Neely Quinn: It would be interesting.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah it would.

Neely Quinn: I would love to see that actually, like a side by side.

Shannon O’Grady: Comparison of grass fed versus non, I would love to see that too.

Neely Quinn: Cool. So any other supplements you want to talk about? Or what else did we miss? There is a ton to talk about, but anything else that is coming to mind for you?

Shannon O’Grady: I think- I mean I think I’ve covered the big ones.

Neely Quinn: Oh wait, I’ve got it. Things to look for when purchasing a supplement. If they’re not going to purchase your supplements, what are the things they should look at?

Shannon O’Grady: One of the most important things is just looking at the supplement facts, and looking at  how things are stated in the supplement facts. A lot of products use things like proprietary blends, and while there are some in our products, we try to minimize them. The ones you find in our products are more related to our whole foods blend in our Feast, which has like 30 different ingredients. But in a lot of products, they’ll have like a proprietary BCAA blend, where they’ll list the amount of the total blend, but then they won’t list the amount of the individual ingredients. A lot of supplement manufacturers will say that it’s because “It’s proprietary and if we share it we’ll be giving out the secret sauce to our competitors”, but in reality, it’s a way for manufacturers to get around testing. So if there is 5 grams of a blend, there’s no way I can test for 5 grams of a blend. But if there’s 2 grams of leucine, I can do an HBLC on that and see how much leucine is in it, and test for a label claim.

It’s a way to get around label claim testing. It’s also devious, because you as consumer might have read that leucine is really important, but when they aren’t listing the amount leucine, you don’t really know how much you’re getting, and whether or not you’re getting the dose you need. Potentially they’re adding 4 1/2 grams of some non-effective cheap ingredient and only 500 milligrams of leucine. I just think it’s pretty deceptive, and companies that use a lot of proprietary blends are probably trying to hide something. So that’s a big one. Obviously looking for products that minimize ingredients, that don’t have a lot of extra ingredients, that don’t put cheap fillers in things-

Neely Quinn: How do people know what a cheap filler is?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, that’s true. I think they know what things are that they don’t recognize, if that makes sense? Or if there’s not a parenthetical explanation of what it is. We try on our labels to explain why a particular ingredient is in there. So why do we have isomaltooligosaccharide, in a product? It’s a fiber. So you might not know what that is, but we told you it’s a fiber, to try and be as transparent as possible. The internet is a dangerous place. It’s also an informative place, so if you don’t know what something is, pull out your iPhone in the store and look it up. I can’t tell you how many friends I have that send me supplement facts to have me look at them. Which I love doing, but it’s just funny. I think good supplement manufacturers try to be as transparent as possible, and try to really explain why things are in their products, and that’s a good thing to look for.

Neely Quinn: Is there any way to know if a company is- like you guys do- third party testing?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, so there are some great groups, like Informed Choice, and NSF for Sport, and Gnarly is hoping to move in that direction. Those are actually third party certifications. We do third party testing on our manufacturer, and we do that internally. Larger companies have started using these third party auditors, that on a big level test their products for label claim. I think companies that are able to do that, and then include it on their label- that’s a really good way for a consumer to judge quality quickly.

Neely Quinn: Okay, so those signs on a label would be a good thing?

Shannon O’Grady: Yup, yup.

Neely Quinn: Okay cool. Anything else they should look for?

Shannon O’Grady: Products should always have a lot number, and either a manufacture date or an expiration date. If you’re buying a product that doesn’t have any of those, don’t buy it. Return it. Lot numbers are really important, because if there is a recall that’s how they’re able to identify whether or not you have the affected product. If you ever pick up a product that doesn’t have a lot number on it, don’t take it. Obviously safety seal, and everything like that as well.

Neely Quinn: I have a random question for you, because I look at a lot of supplements. There are a lot of stearates- people will see stearates a lot. S-T-E-A-R-A-T-E. Those can often cause bloating and diarrhea in people, but they’re in so many things. What are your thoughts on that?

Shannon O’Grady: I see that mostly in capsules, and in some powders, but mostly in capsules. It’s because magnesium stearate is included because it’s a flow agent. Basically it helps move the powder through the manufacturing equipment, that either puts it into a capsule or puts it into a tub. There are companies, like if you are looking for capsules, there’s a company that’s called Pure Encapsulations, that produces the majority, if not all of their products, without stearates- so without magnesium stearate. Because there are people that digestively can’t handle it, and I think there is some research that it is a mineral binder as well.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, it’s not great, and it’s in so much. So that’s cool, that was good education for me, thank you.

Shannon O’Grady: No problem.

Neely Quinn: Anything else?

Shannon O’Grady: I think that’s everything that I have. Thanks so much for the time, I’m always psyched to chat about nutrition, and chat about Gnarly, so it’s been super fun.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, totally. Do you guys have nay new products coming out?

Shannon O’Grady: Not coming out. We have a couple in the works, in the pipeline, that we are hoping to release in the next year or so.

Neely Quinn: And you can’t tell me what they are?

Shannon O’Grady: Uhhh… no.

[laughter]

I’ll just say that Gnarly will never introduce something into it’s line that doesn’t have a direct benefit on the well being of active people, so whether or not that’s a direct performance product, or it just improves nutrition or some aspect of recovery. We’re always looking for things to just- to really help the active individual achieve their goals.

Neely Quinn: Do you guys do testing before you release a product? Will you let a bunch of people use it and see what happens?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, you want to sign up to be in our testing squad?

[laughter]

Neely Quinn: Sure, that’s not why I asked that, but I was just curious. You could just stick a bunch of things in there that in there research say they work.

Shannon O’Grady: Right. No we do do testing, both in terms in obviously taste, but also feedback on all the things we talked about. Digestively, whether someone can tolerate it, and whether they are actually experiencing the benefits. A lot of the products that we develop are based on feedback from customers and athletes. One of my favorite parts of my job is talking with athletes about what they currently use, what they like about it, what they don’t like about it. How Gnarly could tweak it to make it better and include it in our line. We always encourage consumers to give us that feedback as well. They can have a direct line to us via our website, or contact us via e-mail. I’m always looking for information like that.

Neely Quinn: Yeah. Well, I for one am really appreciative of the fact act you guys exist. When you guys came out, I was like “Yes! Now I can confidently recommend these supplements to my people”. So thank you for the hard work that you guys do and having such integrity.

Shannon O’Grady: Awesome, that means a ton Neely, I really appreciate that. Especially coming from you, a trained nutritionist that works with active people, that’s the best kind of compliment we could receive, so thanks.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, no problem. Well let’s do this again.

Shannon O’Grady: Definitely, I appreciate the time.

Neely Quinn: Yeah, thanks.

Shannon O’Grady: Bye.

Neely Quinn: Alright I hope you enjoyed that interview with Shannon O’Grady from Gnarly Nutrition. You can find their stuff at gognarly.com. They’re also on Facebook and Instagram. I really like their products as I said in the interview, and she is a smart lady, I definitely learned a lot, and I hope you did too. What I really wanted was for you to come away with some practical knowledge of what supplements to get, which supplements to not get, and why. Why they’re high quality and why they’re not. So hopefully I’ll have her on again- I think that would be really interesting.

Speaking of nutrition stuff, I’ve actually been doing a lot more with it myself. I’ve been seeing more clients, I’ve been writing some nutrition articles for the blog, so you can stay tuned for those on the TrainingBeta blog. I’m doing a couple of seminars with Steve Bechtel, and maybe one with Robyn Erbesfield’s kids. So that’s cool- I love nutrition, I love the topic, I love helping people feel better and climb harder. If there is ever a way that you want us to get you more nutrition information, or people who you want me to interview, or things that you want me to do, just let me know. I’m psyched to do it right now.

Other than that, if you want help with your climbing training, we have tons of programs at TrainingBeta. You can go to trainingbeta.com, and at the top there is a tab that is training programs. There are a ton of programs in there, for boulders, route climbers, people who want more power endurance, more endurance, finger strength, and all of the programs in there are super easy to follow. You will never question what to do on your training days- you’ll go into the gym with a plan, how many sets, how many reps, why you are doing it, climbing drills- it’s really succinct and well put together by Kris Peters and the other trainers that we have on there. If you want help, go to trainingbeta.com, and every time you purchase something from us, it helps us keep the podcast going, keep the blog going, so we really appreciate your support. And, I appreciate you listening all the way to the end. I will talk to you next week, and have a great week.