Transcript

Neely (00:00:01):

If you are looking for route climbing advice and you don’t feel like trying to make your own training program and you don’t feel like hiring a coach for a considerable amount of money to give you a personalized training plan, we have something in the middle for you. We have a subscription program. It’s our performance route climbing training program where you pay $18 a month and you’ll get three levels of training for routes on your dashboard. And it’s beautifully laid out. You have at least 50 days per level, which is between three and six months of training, depending on how many days a week you train. And in there you’ll get detailed descriptions of how to warm up, what drills to do on roots and on boulders, what to do for your route or bouldering session, whether that is doubles or triples or performance, trying to do hard roots for you in three to four tries or something like that.

(00:01:10):

Or if you’re bouldering and there is bouldering in this route training program because it’ll make you stronger and you might be limit bouldering, you might be doing on the minute boulders. So all of that is really laid out for you. And then there’s also strength training in there, whether that’s doing deadlifts or squats or whatever it is in the weight room. And also finger strength training all laid out for you, minute by minute exercise rep set all of it. And you can find that@trainingbeta.com slash routes. We’re really excited about this. It’s new as of August to 2023. It’s created by coach Matt Pincus, who’s had many years of experience training, not only himself but his hundreds of clients over the years to get better at route training. So again, you can find it @trainingbeta.com slash routes, and we’d love to see you in there.

(00:02:25):

This is the Training Beta podcast, and I’m your host, Neely Quinn. Thanks for joining me for another episode, all about rock climbing training. And I’ve just realized that people might not know who I am or what this podcast is, and so I just wanted to give you a little bit of info. So my name is Neely Quinn and I created this website and I’ve been hosting this podcast for about 10 years. And we created training beta because there was, at the time, 10 years ago, there was sort of a gap of information about training for climbing. And since then, obviously things have blown up, but I would like to think that training beta is still a tome of information for people wanting to learn more about training for climbing. So we have blog posts, tons of blog posts, all about every topic you could imagine.

(00:03:31):

And we have over 250 podcast episodes. We have coaching available, we have training programs, whether that’s eBooks or subscription programs. I do nutrition consulting with climbers, and I have a nutrition program that I offer to people. And I’m also a life coach, and I’m currently taking on new clients. So if you have any mindset issues that you want to work through, whether that’s with climbing, climbing performance anxiety, with climbing, comparison to others, things like that, or if it’s with work or family stuff or just making a difficult decision, I’m here for you. So you can find all of that@trainingbeta.com, and we have appreciated your support so much over the years. And so yeah, just wanted to let you know what this is all about, what we’re doing today on the show. I have coach Matt Pincus, who’s been with me since 2015 or something for a long time.

(00:04:47):

He’s been on the show so many times, and I can’t tell you how many people continually come up to me wherever I am. And just say, I just listened to that podcast with Matt, it was so helpful. And so I always appreciate Matt’s wisdom, experience, insight. He just thinks a lot about climbing and training and is really analytical and just breaks things down really well. So we’re on the show together today talking about something a little bit different, which is our top three habits that help us be successful in our lives and in climbing. I’m going to say this in the interview, in the conversation too, but I just want to highlight the fact that I’m not saying that Matt and I are awesome. We’re not the most successful people, the most successful climbers in the world, but both of us are pretty content with our lives, and both of us are pretty productive people, and we’ve done things in climbing that we’re proud of. And so we wanted to just impart any sort of wisdom that we can about habits that we consistently have in our lives that have helped us be in our definition successful. So I’m just going to get right to it. So here’s Matt Pinkus and myself, and I will talk to you on the other side. Enjoy. Alright, welcome back to the show, Matt. How are you?

Matt  (00:06:24):

I’m doing well, Neely. Thanks for having me back. Yeah,

Neely (00:06:27):

Of course. So you’re going climbing today. Where are you going?

Matt  (00:06:33):

I’m going up to 10 sleep to Greg called the Temple.

Neely (00:06:36):

Oh yeah, you’ve been doing day trips to 10 sleep, which is crazy.

Matt  (00:06:40):

Yeah, I managed to move to Lander to have readily accessible climbing and not be taking three hour each way day trips, and now I’m taking three hour day trips to somewhere else.

Neely (00:06:51):

Well, that’s great. I mean, we’re always going to get bored with our home crags. Right.

Matt  (00:06:57):

And I mean, it’s August, it’s warm and the conditions are just kind of better in there, so it seems worth

Neely (00:07:06):

It. That’s what I say about the Boulder Rock Club my whole crack right now.

Matt  (00:07:11):

Well, yeah, we have been joking quite a bit that the conditions, it’s always 62 degrees and we call it the trophy room, but it’s BJ’s shop where we train, so it’s always perfect conditions in there and it’s not a three hour drive.

Neely (00:07:25):

Right. Yeah. Cool. So just a little update on where you are with your project because we’ve talked about it before in recent episodes, so what’s going on there?

Matt  (00:07:41):

Yeah, I dunno. I didn’t do it. I got really close. I felt like it could be any go, who knows? I dunno, that sounds sort of defeatist, but I was psyched with how I climbed on it. But yeah, just didn’t quite make it happen. So I’m hoping to hoping planning on climbing on it this fall, which will be September or into maybe October, although I did go out there the other day and it’s looking like it might be getting a little wet, so fingers crossed that doesn’t happen. And yeah, I’m just kind of in my summer lull. I’m still coming outside a bit, but I’m also training and just generally trying to get prepared for the fall season and whatever that holds. Yeah,

Neely (00:08:25):

Okay. So how many seasons have you worked on this project?

Matt  (00:08:29):

That’s a reasonably good question. I think that’s three.

Neely (00:08:36):

So I know of a lot of climbers who don’t like to get on things more than three or four times. And so knowing, I have no idea how many times you’ve gotten on this thing, but three seasons is, it’s a good time commitment. How do you keep yourself motivated to keep going back?

Matt  (00:08:59):

Yeah, I mean, I feel like maybe we’ve covered this on the show before, maybe we’ve just talked about it, but I really don’t, it’s not something I feel like I have to try hard to do. It’s sort of, if anything, I have to try harder to not climb on it whenever physically possible. When I finished climbing on it, it was getting hot, the conditions were going downhill. I was noticing that I was starting to get tired. And even though I was reaching my high point still and having good goes getting through the hard opening boulder, I went from just feeling like I was smashing it to it, feeling like I was climbing it with a weight vest on and some combination of declining strength and power, just specific fatigue, all of it. It was clearly time for a break. But yeah, I didn’t want to, all I wanted to do was keep going.

(00:10:00):

And so yeah, it’s not something that I feel like I really have to try hard to do to stay motivated. I really want to do it. And it’s also, I mean, it doesn’t hurt that it’s one of the best routes I’ve ever climbed on of any grade that helps. I just really enjoy climbing on it. I’m looking forward to never doing the opening boulder again. But it’s, I’ve done another route that chairs that same opening boulder, so I’ve done it many, many, many times, and it’s a hard boulder. I don’t get through it every time. So I’m looking forward to hopefully never doing that again or avoiding that for a long, long time. But beyond that, I genuinely enjoy my time on the route and getting to try hard on it, and I’m not having to convince myself to tie in and be like, am I really doing this again? Yeah, no, it’s more, it’s like, God, I get back from the day and I’m like, I can’t wait to go back out.

Neely (00:10:58):

Yeah, I think that’s really cool. I think it’s really good for people to hear that kind of just continuous motivation too.

Matt  (00:11:06):

Yeah, I guess whenever I see people who are like, I don’t enjoy trying something more often or more than a couple times or more than a couple days or more than one season or whatever it, I’m not sure this is true for everybody, but it seems like there’s some amount of you’re setting a timeframe in which you need to succeed on, and you feel like you’re sort of failing if you don’t succeed in that timeframe. And while I think there’s some positives to that in terms of forcing you to try really hard and move on maybe before it’s been too long, when I try a route that I know is hard for me, when I first tried this route, I wasn’t sure I could do it, and that’s at all ever kind of thing. And so there’s no real timeframe that I’ve put on success. I just want to do the route eventually. And so I’m like, yeah, I would really like to stop climbing on it because I’ve succeeded already. So I’m not suggesting, I’m just like, oh, it’s all good. I get frustrated, I get annoyed. I’m annoyed that I haven’t done it yet.

(00:12:25):

I’ll yell curse when I fall off kind of thing. But, so I’m not suggesting that I don’t experience those emotions, but ultimately I’m not okay with the idea that I’m not going to do it eventually. So I’ll just keep trying it. And I think that the exact, whether it’s was one season, two seasons, three seasons, this will be, I guess this will be four if I climb on it this fall a bunch that doesn’t really matter to me. I’m still going to try it.

Neely (00:12:58):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s great. Well, good luck.

Matt  (00:13:05):

Thanks.

Neely (00:13:07):

That’s totally vague. I hope that your season goes well this season. Thanks. Starting in September, but also I hope you have fun in 10 sleep today. So today we came up with this kind of new-ish type of topic that we’ve never talked about before, really, which is some of the habits that we have that help us be successful. And I’m not saying that we are the most successful people in the world. That is definitely not what we’re suggesting here, but just some things that we’ve done in our lives for however long that help us be successful in life and in climbing. So Matt,

Matt  (00:14:00):

This was a perfect segue after talking about how it failed for three seasons on a route, but no. Yeah, I think we were kind of talking in a meeting we were having, just about how, I think we’ve both been doing this for a long time, and some of these things like climbing and some of these things we just sort of take for granted as givens that we just do regularly. And so I dunno, at least for me in sort of preparing for this, it was a good exercise in examining what I do on a sort of daily basis or how I conceive of things too. These things that really, most habits are sort of second nature at this point, but that are what I feel like contributing factors in helping me become better as a climber and just generally existing.

Neely (00:14:54):

Yeah. So what is success to you? First of all, let’s take that back. Do you think that you are a successful person?

Matt  (00:15:07):

Yeah, I think so. I mean, unlike in a climbing context, I feel like I’m improving and getting better. And that’s really what success comes down to for me in there. And then generally in life, I’m generally happy in my life. I enjoy owning my home. I enjoy being somewhat financially secure. It seems like it’s going well. I get to put a lot of effort into the things I really care about, happy in my relationship. I’m happy with what I’ve, the life I’ve been able to build and lander. So yeah, I guess that’s a very vague definition of success. But I think that’s generally how I feel.

Neely (00:15:51):

I mean, I don’t think it’s a vague definition of success. I think those are all, if those are the things that you define as success, then yes, you are being successful.

Matt  (00:16:03):

Yeah. Yeah. I guess it’s like to put it sort of concretely, I guess, it’s like those are the things I really value and I feel like I’m doing reasonably well in those areas. So yeah, I guess how I define it for myself. Yeah.

Neely (00:16:17):

Cool. So the way that I define success is a lot of the same things, obviously, but my mental health, if I’m feeling not depressed or anxious and I’m generally motivated and I am feeling pretty good, then that would be successful. And my physical health, if I’m at least dealing with things proactively that come up with my health, and if I’m able to do the things that I want to do, then I feel like I’m being successful with my physical health and work, same thing, I making enough money to support myself and contribute to my husband’s and my joint finances, that’s success to me. And if I am doing things that are helping people though, that all means success to me with work and with climbing. If I am having fun and challenging myself and not getting burnt out on it with relationships, if I feel like I can be present and kind and loving and staying in regular contact with people. And then the last thing that I define success, it’s not the last thing. There are so many things, but learning, I feel like if I’m in a learning mood and I’m constantly teaching myself new things, then I feel like I’ve been successful in other areas of my life that give me the energy to want to learn.

(00:17:51):

Yeah.

Matt  (00:17:54):

Nice. Yeah, I mean, I think we’re both maybe defining things slightly differently and our individual values there showing through a little bit, but I think generally we’re kind of on the same page in terms of our working definition maybe of success in how we’re going to use this for to frame these habits.

Neely (00:18:14):

What do you feel like are some of the differences that you saw?

Speaker 3 (00:18:21):

Well, I don’t

Matt  (00:18:22):

Know that there’s huge differences. I think it’s just more one of the main things that stood out, and I guess you just did a better job of articulating it. But I know that one of your big mission statements with training beta is helping people. And it’s obviously a big part of my life as well as a coach. But yeah, I guess I just didn’t frame that as part of my internal definition of success in the same way. But I think it’s still clearly a shared value. I don’t think anyone who coaches for a living is like, yeah, I don’t really care about other people that wouldn’t sustain the motivation to do that in any way, shape, or form. And then I think one thing you describe really well is the idea of continual learning there. And that’s definitely a huge part of things for me. Feeling challenged, feeling like I’m, and it doesn’t have to just be within the context of climbing or work or coaching or anything like that. I always want to feel like I’m moving forward and challenging myself and learning new things as well.

Neely (00:19:28):

Yeah, it’s crazy. If I’m not feeling good, I just want to watch reality tv. And lately I’ve just been feeling so good. And last night I stayed up until midnight learning about rammed earth homes, just random stuff, but it makes me feel alive. So today we are going to share some of the habits that we have that help us to be successful in our lives. And we’re going to share three, I have five written down, but we’re just going to start with three and see how long that takes us to get through them. So I’m going to go first, or is there anything else that you want to say, Matt, before we get started?

(00:19:28):

Matt  (00:20:17):

I guess just that I hope that maybe what people can try to take from this is less about the exact specifics of the habit. It can be so situational and how it fits in your life, or you can kind of, what if other people’s advice to death or habits to death. It’s like, well, what if I can’t do that? What if I can’t do this? But I think hopefully the general sort of trends and what we get out of them kind of shines through so that some of this can be actionable advice.

Neely (00:20:46):

For sure. And part of what sparked this is actually both of us just read you and I read for the first time Atomic Habits, which I highly recommend. I think it’s really cool. And while reading it, I was kind of like, you know what? I have good habits. I don’t struggle with a lot of these things. But I will say that a lot of that comes from me being extremely unsuccessful for a lot of years of my life where I felt a lot of anxiety. I felt tired a lot, I didn’t feel healthy, my relationships weren’t good, all of the things. And so I feel like necessity breeds invention or I don’t know what the thing is. Yeah, the saying is something like that where something isn’t working and your life is a fricking catastrophe, and so you have to make these changes. So that’s where a lot of these come from for me. All right.

Matt  (00:21:50):

Yeah, start us off. Cool.

Neely (00:21:52):

All right. So this one is the most basic one, but I really think that a lot of people overlook it is getting enough sleep. So the times when I have felt the actual worst where I’ve gone through major depressions, I’ve gone through three to four of them, and it’s when I’m not sleeping and I don’t eat, I don’t sleep, I feel terrible. I am a mess. I can’t work. I definitely can’t exercise. And so my habits with sleep are, I try to be in bed for nine hours and my whoop says that I sleep between seven and eight, which I think is really crazy because this whole time I’ve thought that I was sleeping nine hours, but that’s just not really the case with your sleep according to whoop. But it does, even seven to eight is enough for me to feel pretty good, not have too much anxiety and be able to do everything that I want to do, not be grumpy, have my climbing be pretty good. And so I think that that one is really important.

Matt  (00:23:15):

What are some of the things you do to set yourself up to be able to be consistent with that?

Neely (00:23:21):

Well, and sometimes I fail, but I try to get into bed by nine 30 or 10, and then I have certain things that I do. Reading at night really helps me sleep well. And then a lot of times I set my schedule up so that, and I know that this is a privilege that I have and that I’ve created myself, but a lot of times I don’t set an alarm. And so I know that my body’s just going to get as much sleep as it needs, which is really important.

Matt  (00:23:56):

Yeah, I guess I do some of the same things, and I’m glad you included this one because it’s definitely been a big change in sort of my life. My partner Lindsay and I worked in before we moved to land, worked in restaurants for a long time as well. And so we were basically on the exact opposite sort of sleep routines we are now, which is, we didn’t get enough and we’d be working until anywhere from 11 at night through to one, two in the morning depending on our roles and what we were doing in the restaurants at the time. And now we both work during the day, don’t work at night. And it’s been like, it was an adjustment at first. But yeah, we do the same thing. And I think the biggest things that we changed there were just kind of having sort of a set time that we just go, we move towards bed.

(00:24:53):

And so yeah, it’s somewhere between 9, 9 30, 10 on the latest, but it’s like it’s not, oh, well it’s move into bed and watch TV or let’s move into bed. It’s just like we move into bed, phones go away, books come out. And that paired with just trying to get up consistently at the same time has meant that don’t really have, I’ve noticed I don’t have near as much trouble as I used to falling asleep or getting up. I’ll often set an alarm if I have something that I really need to be up for, but I genuinely find that most times I wake up sort of, I just wake up by six 30 every morning and I feel good. And if I’ve set a seven o’clock alarm or something, it sort of doesn’t just be like, well, I’ll turn that off and moving on. It’s more of a fail safe than when in the past it used to be like, this is going to have to claw me out of bed to be on time for something.

Neely (00:25:51):

Yeah. Do you feel like now that it’s a little bit different and you guys are on a better, I’m going to say better sleep schedule, do you feel different in your life in climbing?

Matt  (00:26:06):

I’m not sure it’s actually had as major an impact for me as it, but it definitely has. For Lindsay, she, for years, basically her whole life, she’s been like, I’m not a morning person. And now it’s like, yeah, she’s the same as I’m, she’s up before the alarm. She feels good in the morning, has time feels energized, where it used to be if she was up before at 9:00 AM kind of thing, it was kind of like a struggle. So yeah, I don’t know. I certainly notice if I don’t get enough sleep, it really impacts my climbing performance, but I’m not, I think even when I always made sure I was getting enough sleep for the most part, even when we were working at the restaurants, it was just a question of sometimes that meant how I felt. I am a morning person, I really enjoy the morning time, and it just annoyed me more than anything that I would be like, cool, I can’t get out of bed until 9 30, 10. I worked till one 30 in the morning last night. And yeah, I don’t feel as good, but usually once, if I got enough, if got enough sleep, it just shifted the timing and then later in the day I’d still be able to climb a train effectively.

Neely (00:27:25):

It’s important. It’s important for everyone, and I think a lot of people just disregard it just a little bit. So

Matt  (00:27:34):

Yeah, I guess maybe the takeaway there for me is you just put an emphasis on it, you make it a priority. Whereas I think, and for myself too, I feel like I do this now, I used to sort of just be like, well, we’ll see what time I feel tired. I’ll just go to bed. And that could quickly lead to, I’d be like, well, one more episode of whatever TV show or whatever. And the next thing, it’s like, cool, it’s one in the morning and you’re not getting enough sleep. And if you frame that as it’s like, well, which is more important actually watching the show that you just, yeah, maybe it’s interesting, maybe it’s amazing, whatever, but it’s not going anywhere. You can always watch it tomorrow night or whatever versus like, Hey, it’s nine 30. I don’t really care how enthralled I am with the show. I’m pretty much like, yeah, it’s kind of time to go to bed. Yeah.

Neely (00:28:31):

Okay. So sleep. What’s your first habit?

Matt  (00:28:36):

So I have a sort of daily, it’s kind of all wrapped up in a morning routine, but I’ll call it a daily reading habit. And I pretty much am always reading two books. One is, I Joke is my evening book and one is my morning book, and my habit is more with my morning book. My evening book is, it could be anything nonfiction, fiction, but I’m reading that for just enjoyment and to wind down at the end of the day, we were just talking about, it’s what I pick up when I get into bed, but my morning book is something that is to keep me learning, and it can be about climbing, it can be about training, it can be about coaching, mindset stuff, productivity business, whatever. It’s something related to, I feel like I’m kind of trying to actively participate in learning from that to be a better climber, be a better coach, do a better job for training beta, that kind of thing.

(00:29:41):

And how long I read for each morning totally depends on what else I have going on the day, but I try to make sure that I at least pick it up. So this morning we, I’m going climbing later today. I got up, had to eat. We were recording earlier than we normally do because of my climbing schedule. I had to pack my pack, had to deal with getting set up for this podcast, and I didn’t have my normal amount of time. And I usually read, well, I’m having my morning coffee, but I still made sure I read for five minutes just because it’s part of my morning routine. It puts me in a good mood. I like the consistency of it, and I think it helps me set my intention to being open to learning and for the day.

(00:30:37):

So yeah, I’d say the last thing, or I’m sure maybe there’s more, but the main way I sort of frame it is I feel like the benefit from it is not only in knowledge I gain from reading, but in the routine and the structure. It kind of gives my day and how it sets me up, the mindset it gives me to move into the rest of my day. I feel like if I start out sort of being open like, Hey, I’m reading this book and I am valuing what I’m getting from it, then I go into the rest of my day and starting my workday or whatever, being more open and to learning and pushing outside my comfort zone. Yeah,

Neely (00:31:17):

I mean, I think that your habits with reading and learning have helped you become a coach, basically. You just started knowing a lot about training for climbing, and it’s because you do a lot of researching and reading and learning and memorizing and really understanding information. And so I think that it’s definitely helped you be successful in your career.

Matt  (00:31:43):

Yeah, I mean, if we zoom back when I didn’t start working for Train Beta as a coach, I was doing more of a content manager kind of role. And then as training Bay was growing and evolving and the coaching industry was, you were like, Hey, maybe you should coach, you seem to know a lot at this point. And that was, yeah, I didn’t think in a large part that this has been a part of it or part of why that happened. Yeah, no, but I think, again, I’m not only reading books that are, say rock climbing in the title. I try to make sure I cover my bases and if there’s new and interesting new climbing specific books, I’m going to read them. But I definitely try to branch out from that and not just be so singular in that focus. We can learn a lot from sort of cross disciplinary stuff.

Neely (00:32:42):

Yeah, yeah. So you’re saying other sports, other mindset stuff, other,

Matt  (00:32:48):

Yeah, I’ve read books on Zen Buddhism and stuff and just I’ll sort of like, I don’t know, I guess if I see somebody I respect reading something, I’ll put that, I keep a reading list, a list of things I should read. It is just in the notes on my phone. And then I just kind of have a stack of next book up on my desk so that I joke with Lindsay, it’s like the OnDeck circle. And then I have, there’s a little coffee table next to a chair I like to read in the morning, and it’s like the current morning book stays on the coffee table, and then the next book up is just on the pile on the desk. And then once they’re done, they go on the bookshelf.

Neely (00:33:32):

Yeah, that’s a habit. That sounds like a really ingrained habit. And I just want to make one last comment on that. You do make your breakfast every morning, but it’s not quite, it’s pretty quick for you to do it. And so then you sit and you have your coffee and your breakfast. Are you eating, wait, are you having your reading time before you eat?

Matt  (00:33:57):

Usually? Yeah.

Neely (00:33:58):

Okay. The only reason

Matt  (00:33:59):

It’s usually coffee, it’s get up coffee and reading, and then I will make breakfast. And I mean, if I’m being honest, a lot of the time also Lake Windey will make breakfast then. So it’s sort of a mix. But

Neely (00:34:17):

All I was going to say about that is in the mornings, a lot of times it takes me a little bit to make my breakfast. And so for learning purposes, sometimes I’ll listen to something from my school or a podcast that’s teaching me something. And so I think you can do it by listening too. I know that people are commuting or whatever, but the habit is the same. It’s learning something,

Matt  (00:34:45):

Right? Yeah, I guess again, it’s sort of less the specific, maybe your morning’s super hectic and it doesn’t fit to sit down and read listening to a podcast while you’re commuting or whatever. But again, I think it’s more the just positioning or starting your day with that learning mindset and actually taking in some useful information, but also just adopting that mindset right away. Yeah,

Neely (00:35:12):

Totally. Okay, so that was your number one. My number two is, this is so cliche for a nutritionist, but it is eating well in parentheses for my body all day, every day. And this one I have gone so wrong with as a teenager, early twenties, my diet was horrible and I felt it all the time. I had terrible digestive issues, I had really low energy, terrible recovery. I had all kinds of stuff with my health because of it, and I didn’t feel good. And so for me, and I know that some people can fudge a little bit more than I do, but for me it’s like I don’t care about food unless I know it’s going to make me feel good. And I have done so much experimentation to figure out how much of everything I need to eat for each meal and how many meals and what time of the day. And so I basically just do mostly the same thing for breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack every day with some variation with proteins and vegetables. But it is just such a no-brainer to have that be a part of my habits and it just makes me feel energetic. I can focus and healthy. My body feels healthy in general.

Matt  (00:36:54):

Nice. Yeah, I think every time I spend time with you, when I stayed with you in Vegas or when I stayed with you in Colorado, I think the thing that stands out to me isn’t necessarily how any of the specifics of your diet, but just how consistent you are and how much you’re willing to plan ahead and prioritize fueling and eating in a way that makes you feel good. Whereas I generally think I eat a really healthy diet and I think about fueling and making sure I get enough protein and all these things, but I’m definitely liable to just sort of end up like, oh, shoot, I don’t have food. Oh, didn’t plan ahead, didn’t grocery shop. Or Oh, we’re going to X place, we’re doing X social thing, and I didn’t think ahead and I just have to sort of scrap it and make it work kind of thing. Or I’ll just be like, ah, I’m going to be hungry for a little bit and I’ll eat later. And I think I don’t have really any dietary restrictions, and so maybe that just gives me some more wiggle room to be looser with it. But I’m always impressed by your commitment to, or how much effort you put into just making that a priority. And I think, yeah, clearly works for you. Thanks.

Neely (00:38:18):

Yeah, I feel like it’s out of necessity and not desire, but at the same time, I really like to be comfortable and so I’ll do whatever it takes to be comfortable, but that’s good to hear. Okay. So eating well, it’s kind of a given, but I had to say it. Alright, what’s your number two?

Matt  (00:38:37):

My number two is climbing with people who are better than me. When I was prepping for this podcast and thinking through my habits, I realized that this is something that I’ve sort of always actively sought out even when I first started out climbing, and it just seems logical to me. I remember in the early days of my climbing literally first weeks kind of thing, going to a gym being like, oh, those people are better than me. I should climb with them because they’re doing what I want to do. I’d like to be better and I should climb with them or around them and watch and learn from them because I can learn from their approach, I can learn from their process. And I maybe didn’t think of it in that concrete away right away, but I remember early in my climbing, I had a job working at this outdoor store in New Jersey called Camp More, and there was a guy there, Peter Jewel, who’s one of my early climbing friends, he’s actually one of the shapers for Kilter Holts now.

(00:39:50):

And we still see each other in Waco pretty regularly. But I was pretty brand new to climbing, climbing V three V four kind of thing, and I don’t remember the exact, but he was climbing better like V seven V through I think pushing into harder grades and being like, he also worked at camp more and I was just like, I should climb with him. I want to climb with Pete because he’s better than me. And that’s sort of continued. I’ve had the kind of privilege to do that. A lot of my main partners over the years have been quite a bit better than me. I’ve climbed a lot with Jonathan Segrest. I’ve traveled for extensively with Sam Elias Round Lander. I climbed a lot with BJ Tilden, and I know that a lot of those people are really high level climbers, but I think it’s still scales and I dunno, success leaves tracks. So I kind of feel like I can hitch my wagon to these people who are climbing way better than me. And those guys who I just named are climbing probably better than I ever will, but it helps pull me along. And I think that’s something that I don’t see everyone do all the time, but I think it’s something you can actively seek out. I really feel like it has played a huge role in my progression as a climber.

Neely (00:41:16):

How so?

Matt  (00:41:18):

Just in learning what to do, how do you conduct yourself? What do you do at the cliff? How do you approach this? What’s a climbing day look like? One of the amazing things about climbing is you can have the same experience on something that’s the same relative difficulty to your abilities as an elite climber is having on something relative to their ability levels. So one example, it was actually when we met the first time you and Jonathan were staying together in Vegas, and I came down on a trip to visit and slept on the couch in your guys’ place, and I was mostly bouldering and Jonathan kind of convinced me to go out to the Gorilla Cliffs, or not the Gorilla cliff, the black and tan wall in the Utah Hills. He needed a belay. And he was like, dude, you’re totally going to like it.

(00:42:18):

It’s awesome. They’re short boulder route and there’s this cool one. I bet you’ll do it, blah, blah, blah. Basically he sold me on coming out to belay and I was happy to go. And he was right. I was psyched and I got to climb with him and he was trying, I never remember which, which there, but one of the 14 bees at the cliff, and I remember watching him go up the route and for the first time and sort of take on every bowl. He didn’t do all the moves, even some of them he didn’t even try really. He was just because pretty sharp rock there. And he was just sort of like, okay. And I was like, oh man, yeah, guess this is going to take a little bit of effort kind of thing. But it goes through the root comes down belays me.

(00:43:03):

I think I was trying this eight a thing nearby and didn’t do it, whatever. And then I’m like, okay, well Jonathan’s going to have another working go. And he just tied in and hiked it and it looked like absolutely nothing. And I was really taken aback and there’s sort of the immediate shock value of like, whoa, that’s really impressive. But I was also like, wow, he’s so deliberate with how he spends his energy, his skin, everything. There were moves that he didn’t even try. He was just like, okay, I know what to do, but if I do that, I’m pulling this small sharp crimp that’s going to cost me skin. And he’s so confident and in tune with what he needs to do to get a route done that he was just like, cool, I’ll do it on the go. It’s not a big deal.

(00:43:58):

And I’m sure that’s like bit him in the ass sometimes as well. But yeah, it was just really impressive. And that’s just a standout example where I was like, oh, okay. I think I’m being deliberate in how I suss a route or how I approach learning how to do a bolder route. But he was operating on a much higher sort of level, not just in terms of difficulty of the route, but in terms of the attention to detail and just how deliberate he was with it. And so that’s just an example. I was like, okay, I might not be, at the time, I think I was climbing 13 C, but I was able to, I like might not be climbing five 14 or five 15, but I can apply that to routes that I’m currently working on. Yeah.

Neely (00:44:54):

Yeah. That’s so cool. I’m sure there are a hundred other examples just like that from other people you’ve climbed with.

Matt  (00:45:00):

Totally. Yeah. Like I said, and again, it’s something that I’ve just always actively sought out, and it wasn’t really until prepping this podcast that I really thought about how consistent of a pattern it’s been, but I really feel like it’s an important habit and something I do. And again, it just makes sense to me. Why wouldn’t you want to climb it? It’s like, oh, hey, you’re doing that route that I’d like to do and you have climbed better than me. I can learn from you. And I think that what I want to add to that is it doesn’t have to be this weird, I feel like I also offer something in return.

(00:45:48):

In that example I just used with Jonathan, he needed a belay, the black and tan. It’s not a cliff that everyone’s lining up to go to all the time. And so I was also offering a belay support. I feel like I do a really good job of keeping a positive attitude and being psyched at a cliff. And so you can offer other things to partners. You don’t have to be the one who’s just like, Hey, you’re better than me. I want to climb with you. I’m going to learn. But from you, it doesn’t have to be this awkward thing, but you can just, it’s like, I don’t know, if somebody comes up to me and they’re like, Hey, whether they’re better than me or not, they’re like, Hey, I want to climb where you’re trying to climb. I’ll be consistent and give you a belay or carry pads to the problems that you want to go to. And then I’m not going to say no to that. That’s great. This is awesome. Now, I don’t have to stress partners. It’s like if you offer consistent to be a consistent and reliable partner, a lot of people are just going to jump at that.

Neely (00:47:02):

I do want to point out a similarity or a similarity between this one and Oh, no, I just lost my train of thought. Oh, right in the beginning when I asked you why, how you stay so motivated after it’s going to be your fourth season on this route that you’re trying. And in my mind what I was thinking was it’s really impressive how you do not fear failure. I mean in ways I’m sure you do, but it’s not keeping you from continuing to try your, I’m going to say in quotes, failure so far to send has not kept you from continuing to try. And the same thing can be said here with climbing with stronger people. I think a lot of people don’t climbing with stronger people because it makes them feel bad about themselves. And you don’t have that. You don’t care. All you want to do is learn, and this is your growth mindset showing through all the time in your life.

Matt  (00:48:09):

Yeah, I guess that’s a good point. It’s a good way of putting it. And for the record, I don’t think you have to put my failure so far in quotes. It is what it is. I haven’t done the route. It doesn’t make me feel bad,

Neely (00:48:21):

And that’s exactly what I’m saying.

Matt  (00:48:24):

Yeah. But yeah, no, I think that’s the thing’s I don’t know in my coaching, I run into this it, yeah, I feel like I’m confident in my, I’m confident being the climber I am, and I am routinely the weakest one in the group I’m climbing in. And I don’t think I’m a total slouch here, but I mean, hell, I climb a lot with BJ and he literally warms up on routes that are like, I can’t do,

(00:49:03):

And he’s just got ruthlessly dialed and are things that would be lifetime ticks for me. That’s not an exaggeration, and it just doesn’t bother me. And I think that we can be, I know that I certainly value him as a partner, and I know that he also values me as a partner even just because, Hey, I’m going climbing with him today. He’s got a project that he’s working on, and again, similar situation to what I was describing with Jonathan and the black and tan people aren’t lining up to go climb at this crag. So even just the simple fact that I’m willing to go belay makes me a valuable partner there. But yeah, it just doesn’t bother me at all to be the quote weakest or the worst person in the group or at the cliff for anything.

Neely (00:49:59):

Even climbing with Paige and all the other people who I climb with who are way stronger than I am, you just have to have this detachment from it where you’re like, I don’t compare myself to them. That is a different species over there. I am me. I’m having fun. And you just totally separate yourself and then it can be a really good learning experience and super fun.

Matt  (00:50:27):

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think the other thing to remember there is everyone’s going through the same sort of struggle. If you talk to any of Paige, Jonathan, bj, Sam, whatever, about their projects, they’re going to say the same things. They have doubt, they stress sending or not sending. They go through all those same things, so we’re all doing the same thing. It’s just scaled to our own sort of difficulty. But it just seems like an obvious, or always has seemed like an obvious learning opportunity to me to be like, Hey, if we’re all doing this, but you are doing it at such a higher level or even a slightly higher level, well maybe there’s something I can learn to help raise my level from being attached to that. Yeah.

Neely (00:51:20):

Yeah. Cool. Okay, so that was climbing with people who are stronger than you is one of your habits. And then I’ll move on to my habit number three, which is having a mostly set schedule, which kind of makes me want to throw up to say it because this is actually a new thing for me. I mean, I’ve always had sort of a schedule, but as a business owner and a person whose highest value in life is freedom, having a set schedule is the idea of it is being in jail for me. But I found myself being really pretty anxious about not achieving certain things, not knowing when I was going to go to the gym or when I was going to do a certain thing for work or when I would have time to take my dog to the reservoir for a walk, or I’ve just been all over the place every day of the week and then trying to also climb a lot.

(00:52:27):

And so it’s just been kind of hectic, but I know this isn’t an ingrained habit in me yet, but I really, really love it. Even over the past few weeks, I’ve had a set schedule every day where there is a little bit of wiggle room, but I have a set amount of time that I’m working. I have set times when I go do all of these other things, I have a set day for errands and chores. I have set days that I’m climbing, and it’s just brought so much more productivity to me and contentment and joy. And so that translates into every part of my life, but also my climbing, because I feel like, okay, when I’m climbing, I’m climbing and I don’t have to be worrying about anything else. I know I’ve done a lot that day to feel like I’ve achieved something and I know that these times are allotted. So I think that that has been really helpful.

Matt  (00:53:30):

Yeah, I mean, think obviously I also really value freedom. We both have made career choices and worked really hard to set ourselves up with the ability to have flexibility in our schedule and stuff. But I feel the same way. There’s sort of this maybe naive idea that, hey, if you just can do whatever you want whenever you want, you’re going to be happier. But it just leads to, you constantly have to be making choices about how you’re going to spend your time. Well, should I be doing this right now? It has to happen, or should I go climbing or should I watch tv? Because relaxing is important too. End and end.

(00:54:12):

Yeah, I feel the same way. Maybe not, I’m not sure how sort of scheduled you are right now, but whenever I, in more of a routine with my schedule, I definitely feel just more at ease. It’s easier to be like, okay, cool. On Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays, that’s when I do client calls. And so I try pretty hard to keep those days open and available. And then I don’t feel bad about the fact that today’s Wednesday and I am going climbing this afternoon because I’m like, well, it wasn’t like, oh, well, this was when I should be doing this because I’m like, no, I did it the last two days and I’m going to do it tomorrow. So I have time to do that today. And I think what I’d like to maybe add to that is how much of it you do I feel like can be how scheduled and routine you are with your regular schedule.

(00:55:15):

I go through periods where I’m really open to or I schedule my climbing days like, oh, okay, let’s say Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday or something. And especially if I’m kind of in a training mode, I’ll be sort of more strict with that. But when I’m sort of more in season, hey, the weather doesn’t always cooperate. And so I’ll be way more open to being like, okay, I’m going to be more flexible with my schedule to try to climb more. And sometimes that means I have to move things around and sort of scramble a little bit, but I only do that for certain periods of time, and I try to be sort of deliberate with that when that is. Yeah,

Neely (00:56:07):

And this takes some forethought and planning. I’ll find myself now planning three or four weeks ahead on a Friday because I want to get something done and I know that it needs to be done on this day, whatever. It takes some forethought. And I wanted to say that I know that not everybody’s like us, not everybody is a whatever, have such a flexible schedule. A lot of people have jobs, but I do think that people can get overwhelmed. They don’t do planning, whether it’s childcare, climbing, partners, meal prep, whatever it is that allows them to then have the time to do the things that they want to do. So having that set schedule I think can really be helpful.

Matt  (00:56:58):

Yeah, no, totally agree.

Neely (00:57:00):

Okay, so what is your number three?

Matt  (00:57:05):

So I kind of had trouble coming up with the third one. Initially I was, yeah, I don’t know, nothing super profound was coming up. And so I was reflecting on what I feel like really has contributed to my success as a climber for this one, what I came up with is just simply the habit of showing up. I feel like consistency is always the sort of most important factor when it comes to training, getting better at climbing, climbing performance. And when I really think about it in the last hell, 10 to 13 years kind of thing, really don’t, I’m not the kind of person who misses sessions, who lets daze at the cliff slip away kind of thing. I’m really consistent in how much I climb, barring sort of injury, sickness kind of thing. I think I’d be hard pressed to find more than a week or two periods during that time where I haven’t been climbing three to four times a week

(00:58:27):

For 13 plus years. That’s basically since I moved to Wyoming. And I sort of find myself preaching that in my coaching all the time. It’s like, Hey, just show up. It’s kind of a prerequisite, but I think what the underlying lesson is, I am always looking for a reason why I can climb, why I can go to the cliff or where I can train rather than the other way around. And for sure you get skunked sometimes you are like basically if two people look at the forecast and it says 50% chance of rain, some people are like, Hmm, that’s like a high probability of rain. I might get wet and it’s not worth going where I’m like, that’s a 50% chance of a good day. That sounds silly, but I truly look at it that way most of the time. And you get rained on, conditions suck, whatever, but you also end up with days. I think you come out on top in the long run, basically. And so yeah, I’ve kind of tried to make a habit of that, of just like if there’s any chance it’s worth climbing or training, then I’m going to do it and show up.

Neely (00:59:55):

I mean, in your experience working with clients, what is it that you see makes people not show up?

Matt  (01:00:07):

For the most part, the most common thing I see is thinking that the investment of what it takes to go to the gym for a day or go out to the cliff or the crag or the boulders for a day sort of isn’t worth it. So I’ll see people be like, that example I just gave of the forecast, and it’d be like, I don’t know, it’s just not really looking. It might be kind of crappy and I’m going to have to drive a bit. And so I think it brings up an important point. I’m sure that some people listening to this right now, if Lander, Wyoming are like, yeah, cool. Wow, you show up at the cliff all the time, that’s great. There’s Cliffs seven minutes from downtown and Lander, huge investment. But I’ve only lived in Landry for a year and a half now for the 12 or whatever, 11 and a half years before that, I was living in Jackson, which it was a three hour drive depending on the cliff, three to four hour drive each way to go.

(01:01:08):

And I would roll the dice often and just be like, yeah, hopefully it pans out. And if that’s, there’s numerous, numerous, numerous times. If our friend Dusty, who is still doing the same thing who’s on the recording right now too, he’d be chuckling, especially with winter climbing in sinks. It’s happened so many times and it’s so frustrating. But you drive three hours, you hike up to sinks, it’s gorgeous and sunny, it’s been snowing sideways in Jackson for forever. And you’re like, this is awesome. And you’re like, do your first two warmup route. And then you’re tying in to try your project, and it’s like the clouds come in, the wind picks up, and it’s like instant numb out day sucks. And you’re like, well, that was pretty shitty that we just drove warm up three hours, got to warm up and now we’re going to numb out a little bit and then we’re going to drive back. And that’s objectively frustrating. But both of us over the years have always, when you’re living here now, I’m often be like, cool, yeah, maybe I’ll leave, go climb inside, whatever. But if I’ve driven three hours to get to the cliff, I’m going to keep climbing. And so you’re like, okay, maybe it’s numb out and not sending weather, but then I try a different route and sort beta, and that sets you up then to take advantage of the days and times where it is good.

Neely (01:02:45):

Yeah, I mean, what I’m thinking of, and this kind of ties into my next one, which I’ll only do one more, but basically sometimes when the conditions aren’t perfect or I’m supposed to go to the gym, but I really don’t feel like it, it’s sometimes been because I a might be afraid of failure. I’m like, oh, well, I want to go try my project today, but it’s rainy and it’s kind of like an excuse to not experience failure. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. I think that a lot of people have that where they’re like, well, or I could just not experience that feeling and use the reign as an excuse. So there’s that. And then sometimes I also will get kind of bored of what I’m doing in the gym or whatever.

(01:03:39):

My next habit that I do is that I vary my workouts in the gym. This sort of came from when Steve Bechtel first came out with his logical progression stuff, where it’s like one day you do strength, one day you do endurance, one day you do capacity, whatever it is. But I think I’ve always kind of done this because freedom and variety are the spice of my life. And so I’ll go in and do, like yesterday I did a performance day, the day before that I did triples on routes. The day before that I moon boarded. And so I try to keep things really fresh for myself so I have something to be excited about and some rest built in where I’m just doing easy laps some days. And I feel like it’s helped keep me consistently strong for me and consistently in the gym and outside and motivated.

Matt  (01:04:38):

So I think this was a good segue. What you’re saying is varying your workouts has been a tool or a habit that you’ve used to help you keep showing up. And there’s a lot of those. We could talk forever about it, but I think that the important thing there is that I kind of always circle back to is you can always find excuses, but it’s also if you flip it on its head, if you want it bad enough, you’ll find the time and make it happen. And I know that sounds super privileged and whatever, but it’s also, if we put it in the performance context, the rocks don’t owe us anything. So it is just kind of a reality that if you want to do what you want to achieve your goals, you have to go for it in that way.

Neely (01:05:36):

Yeah. Yeah. The rocks definitely don’t owe us anything. Yeah. Okay. I kind of wanted to keep this one sort of short and we’re at exactly an hour right now, so what are some closing thoughts you have about all this?

Matt  (01:06:00):

Well, I think it was interesting that we didn’t share our habits with each other that we were going to do beforehand. And I feel like they kind of flowed together pretty well, which I think is interesting. I’m not sure what that says, but yeah, I don’t know. I just hope that, again, that kind of how I launched into this, I hope that people take, it’s less, I think about the specifics of our individual habits got their own because schedule and whatever, and constraints and pressures and stuff on their time, but more just the general approach. And I think to me, the common thread was sort of like we both take the steps necessary in our lives to prioritize the things that we really want do, even if it is maybe less fun or less free feeling in the moment, and that we take steps to feel good while we’re doing it and control what we can control. So yeah, I think that that’s, if you set your habits up to do that, I think that’s a step in the right direction for anybody in anything really.

Neely (01:07:18):

Yeah, and just being consistent and having also time for continual reflection on your life, how happy you are in your life, what needs to change in order for you to reach your goals or be the person you want to be and making changes.

Matt  (01:07:39):

Agreed. Yeah.

Neely (01:07:41):

Cool. Well, thanks for sharing all of this. I appreciate it. And I’m going to let you go climbing now.

Matt  (01:07:49):

Appreciate it. Yeah, I’m going to go show up and climb with somebody who’s better than me. That’s going to be great.

Neely (01:07:55):

Go consistent. Yeah. All right, I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks Matt.

Matt  (01:08:00):

Thanks Neely.

Neely (01:08:03):

All right. I hope you enjoyed that. Talk with me and coach Matt Pinkus. You can find if you want to work with him, you can find his stuff@trainingbeta.com slash matt. He does coaching where he’ll do an hour with you, he’ll do a month with you, he’ll do three months with you. He has clients who are on a subscription with him for his coaching because he just does ongoing plans for them. So he has a lot of options there. If you want personal coaching from anywhere in the world, he works all remotely with his clients. Again, that’s at training beta.com/matt. He’s awesome. He’s a great coach. And his other thing that’s out now is our new route training program. So I just want to remind you that that is now available for you to get, and if you actually are one of the first 100 people to sign up for the subscription program, you will get a bonus podcast episode with Matt talking all about route training.

(01:09:12):

And this isn’t going to be published on the podcast. It’s only for people who sign up for this new route training program. And I discussed what the program is in the beginning of this episode. But just a reminder, you basically pay $18 a month and you get very detailed workouts complete from your warmup to your drills, to your climbing session, to your strength training and finger training depending on what level you’re at. So there are three levels to choose from, and you can find that@trainingbeta.com slash routes. So again, the first hundred people will get this bonus episode we did on route training, and if you sign up by next Friday, which is Friday the 18th of August, you’ll also get access to a q and a session that he’s doing just for new members, all about training this program, anything you want to know about for training, for climbing.

(01:10:22):

I think that’s all I’ve got for you today. I really appreciate you listening all the way to the end. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And so, yeah, thanks so much and I’ll talk to you next time.