About Marisa Michael

Marisa Michael is a dietitian, a personal trainer, and an athlete. She’s been a dietitian for 18 years and has a private practice at RealNutritionLLC.com where she helps athletes optimize nutrition for sports performance, from recreational to elite. While she has mainly focused on running and triathlons, 6 years ago when her son got into climbing, she followed suit.

The reason I wanted to speak with Marisa is that she has a lot of knowledge about Intuitive Eating, which is a popular topic right now. She gives us an explanation of exactly what it is and how it can be used to improve our health and our relationship with food.

Marisa Michael Interview Details

• 10 Principles of Intuitive Eating
• Who it’s helpful for
• Who it may not work for
• Intuitive Eating and Caffeine Usage
• Eating Disorders and Intuitive Eating
• “Health at Every Size” Discussion
• Weight Loss Goals and Intuitive Eating

Marisa Michael Links 

• Website for Climbers:  nutritionforclimbers.com
• General Website: realnutritionllc.com
• Instagram: @realnutritiondietitian
• My first interview with Marisa on RED-S and disordered eating
• Marisa’s new book: Nutrition for Climbers: Fuel for the Send
• BOOKS ON INTUITIVE EATING
  • Intuitive Eating by Evelyn Tribole
  • Health at Every Size by Linda Bacon
  • Anti-Diet by Christy Harrison

Rock Climbing Training Programs 

Do you want a well-laid-out, easy-to-follow training program that will get you stronger quickly? Here’s what we have to offer on TrainingBeta…

• At-Home Training Program
• Personal Training Online
• Bouldering Training Program for boulderers of all abilities
• Route Climbing Training Program for route climbers of all abilities
• Finger Strength Programs
• All of our training programs

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Transcript

Neely Quinn 

Welcome to the training beta podcast where I talk with climbers and trainers about how we can get a little better at our favorite sport. I’m your host Neely, Quinn. And I want to remind you that the podcast is actually an offshoot of a website, all about training for climbing, which is trainingbeta.com. And over there, you’ll find regular blog posts, all about training, training programs for all levels of climbers, online personal training, nutrition services with me and a ton more information. So if you want to check all that out, you can go to trainingbeta.com.

So a little update on me, I did have surgery three weeks ago now, and I am waiting impatiently for week six to come around when they take these pins out of my wrist, which means that I’ll be able to rotate my forearm. It’s really crazy. Having your arm pinned in one position, and it really makes you appreciate the mobility of the human body. But anyway, I’m doing okay, I’m — it’s painful, but tolerable. And hopefully I’ll have a smooth recovery from here on out.

One other announcement before I get into the podcast is that Alex Stiger, who is my very good friend, and also a fantastic coach and trainer. She’s actually the head coach over at Movement Boulder, and has been training people for like seven years now. And she joined Training Beta last week officially as a coach – as a performance coach. So you can work with her if you want to. And you can go to trainingbeta.com/alex for more information. But she’s doing 75 minute consultations, or an eight week training block, where you´ll have full access to her to ask questions. And she’ll write out a full eight week training program for you. So I’m really excited to have her on board. And just to be clear, Matt Pincus is definitely still on board with us and still taking clients as well. So you can find Alex at training beta.com/alex and as usual, Matt at trainingbeta.com/matt.

Alright, so today on the podcast, I have Marisa Michael. She’s a dietician. She’s very knowledgeable. I’ve had her on the podcast before talking about red-s and disordered eating. And one of our other specialties is intuitive eating. And I’m going to let her explain it to you. But I know that it’s been a popular topic on social media. And you may even have some friends who’ve tried it, and maybe you’ve tried it yourself. But basically, it’s more about listening to your body’s cues about what it wants to eat, and when and how that can affect your health and overall well being and happiness. So, without further ado, here is Marissa Michael.

All right. Welcome back to the show. Marissa, thanks very much for talking with me again. 

Marisa Michael 

Thank you for having me.

 Neely Quinn 

Yeah. So for anybody who hasn’t listened to our previous episode, or doesn’t know who you are. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself?  

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, my name is Marisa Michael. I’m a dietitian. And I have a private practice in Portland, Oregon. I’ve been a dietitian for about 18 years. And I specialize in sports, nutrition and helping athletes and active people with their nutrition.

 Neely Quinn 

Nice, perfect. It’s what a lot of people are really interested in right now is how to eat for climbing. And do you work with many climbers?

Marisa Michael 

I do. I work with climbers, but also other athletes and active people. So a lot of — I do a lot of endurance sports, triathlon, running, cycling, and just anyone that’s interested in helping with their performance and their nutrition, so I get anywhere from just recreational athletes just trying to do a little bit better all the way to collegiate and a few pro athletes too.

 Neely Quinn 

Nice. So in our last conversation, we talked about disordered eating and red-s. And people really, really liked that one. And I really appreciate you doing that. And today, we’re gonna switch gears and talk about another specialty of yours, which is intuitive eating. So I’m just gonna let you take it and tell me all about intuitive eating. 

 Marisa Michael 

Okay, yeah. So I think a lot of people have probably heard the term intuitive eating. It seems like it’s sort of becoming more popular lately. And I think it’s sometimes misunderstood. So I love talking about intuitive eating because I feel like it’s a really helpful framework for people. I’ve seen it change a lot of my own clients lives, which sounds kind of hyperbole. I usually don’t like talk in extremes like that, or exaggerating or anything, but it truly has been life changing for a lot of clients that I’ve worked with, and I’ve heard this about intuitive eating from other dietitians that use this model.

So this is a really interesting framework, it’s based off of 10 principles. They’re not called rules for a reason. They’re kind of principles that just kind of guide how you approach food and your relationship to food. And what I really like about the framework is that it encompasses both your physical health and nutrition choices, but it also includes mental health. Food is so emotional and mental, I feel like that. I like that it does include that aspect. Because food isn’t — we don’t eat food in a vacuum or we don’t — We don’t think of food as necessarily nutrients, we think of it as food or enjoyment or pleasure, or fueling, or all these other things. So I like that the intuitive eating framework encompasses both mental and physical aspects of it.

 Neely Quinn 

Yeah, for sure. I mean, eating is so emotional for a lot of people. So I would, I would love to go through those principles and just jump right in just so people know what it is that we’re talking about. So do you want to start with the first one?

 Marisa Michael 

Yeah, yeah. So this whole framework was set forth about 25 years ago by a couple of dietitians named Evelyn Tripoli and Elise rice. And they have these 10 principles.

The first one is reject the diet mentality. So that basically means not chasing after the next diet, or the next fad diet and not trying to change your diet, to manipulate your body weight, or shape or size, but rather to just eat according to what they call attunement, which is tuning into your body’s physical cues. So hunger, fullness, satiety, things like this. So it’s not going based off of external rules, diet rules, such as a portion size, or you have to eat a certain time of day or you have to do certain food at a certain amount. It’s more just going to add more intuition, which sounds a little bit scary for a lot of people because they’re like, well, you know, if I ate intuitively, I’d be eating the quote unquote, junk food all the time, you know, it’d be eating doughnuts all the time, or ice cream, or whatever it is. But really, that’s not what intuitive eating is all about. There’s also honoring your health along with it. So that’s the first principle reject the diet mentality.

The second one is honor your hunger. So being aware of those hunger cues and being able to honor and respond to that rather than putting it off or delaying it as lots of diets tell you to do.

The third one is make peace with food. When meaning. If you feel like you have a rough relationship with food, maybe you have some fear foods or foods that you avoid, or foods that you feel like you’re there’s an addictive or creating quality to it. Try to make peace with food and identify that the food doesn’t have to have that much power over you.

The fourth one is challenge the food police. So this is an interesting concept. The food police is kind of that jerk in your head that judges you for what you’re eating. So it tells you things like: Oh, you failed today because you didn’t eat that salad or you’re going to have to work out extra because you ate extra calories. Or why can’t you control what you’re eating, you know, things like that. So there’s food police is kind of that that mean voice in your head that judges everything you do. So part of the principles of intuitive eating is to challenge that and recognize that it’s happening, and learn how to retrain your thoughts so that it has more compassion within that, that thought pattern.

Five is discover the satisfaction factor, meaning when you’re eating, it should feel satisfying. So we want to pick foods that feel nourishing, we want to pick foods that are healthy. We also want to pick foods that are enjoyable. So if they’re not satisfying to you, you will — usually people search for other foods to eat, you know, if you really wanted maybe a steak and potatoes but you opted for a green smoothie, you’re not going to be satisfied, you’ll want to keep trying to find other foods. So satisfaction factor is really important in intuitive eating — in the intuitive eating model.

Number six is feel your fullness. So that’s kind of like honoring your hunger. Also honoring your fullness, feeling your fullness, being able to stop when you feel full and not overeating to the point that you feel really uncomfortable or stuffed or not doing that chronically.

Seven is cope with your emotions with kindness, which is a really interesting principle. I love that intuitive eating allows emotional eating because that is actually a really good coping skill. And it can be really useful. But also coping with your emotions in other ways other than eating and wisdom self compassion, their aid is respecting your body. So this is a big principle that comes into play if anyone is struggling with body image issues, and being able to respect your body, being able to understand that it is of worth regardless of your appearance or your weight or your size or your shape.

And then nine is addressing exercise and movement. You know, having joyful movement or intuitive movement also include encompass any kind of athletic training, you know, honoring your body and being able to push yourself, but not to the point of injury or overtraining or exhaustion.

And then the last one is gentle nutrition, which is the one that kind of overarching, a lot of the other principles where people say: Oh, if I eat intuitively, I would always be eating junk food. The principle gentle nutrition says no, you wouldn’t really because you want to honor your health, and you want to be able to nourish your body and feel your body in a way that feels good. So those are the 10 principles in a nutshell. 

 Neely Quinn 

Okay. I mean, it sounds really lovely.

 Marisa Michael

Mm hmm.

Neely Quinn 

And, I mean, I guess my questions about it are, how does it actually play out with clients? I’ll tell you like from, from the outset, I have, I have some skepticism about it. Just because with my clients and what I know of people’s eating behaviors, a lot of people don’t know what proper nutrition is. And so they might not even know, like, the gentle nutrition part of it. They, they might not know that, you know, the steak and potatoes might be an actually healthy option that because we have such, you know, misconceptions about what is healthy, because we’ve been told by the media, certain things. And so a lot of times people will keep themselves from eating actually healthy things, thinking that they’re doing themselves a favor. 

Marisa Michael

Yea

Neely Quinn

And so my question is like, how do you — do you have to educate them about proper nutrition at the same time is letting them feel their intuitiveness? 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, definitely. And it’s always really personalized. So when I work with clients, one on one, it’s very personalized. And sometimes people learn about intuitive eating on their own, and then they can adapt it on their own. So I like that you said, like, oh, it sounds lovely, but I’m kind of skeptical, because that’s a lot of people’s reaction. And that’s good to have those questions to truly understand what it is or what, what it could do for you, or what it could do for clients, those, so there’s definitely an education piece there. So sometimes clients come to me because they just need help with nutrition. And part of that is just practical nutrition education, like figuring out what makes sense for their diet and their lifestyle and their medical history. So of course, there’s a part of just that general nutrition education, like, Oh, what is healthy for you, or what would make sense for you to choose in that instance, but then the intuitive eating can sort of inform those decisions. 

And so for example, like you might have someone that, like you said, maybe they don’t know that steak and potatoes is actually an acceptable alternative or an acceptable food to eat. But you can use the intuitive eating term that maybe it had an example where they did eat the green smoothie, or the kale salad. And then they describe this is really common, I have — eat low calorie or eat the quote, unquote, healthy foods. And then they describe this experience where they’re going back to the kitchen like 15 minutes later, and looking for a snack because they weren’t satisfied, and they’re not full-

Neely Quinn

Right.

Marisa Michael

So they keep eating and eating, and then they end up overeating or eating more calories than they actually even needed. Or maybe it’s not even a balanced meal when they end up eating all the snacks. So thinking about that nutrition piece, the satisfaction piece and honoring your hunger piece, really play a role in just informing how they can nourish and feel their body with good nutrition. 

Neely Quinn 

Mmm hmm. So when you first meet with people, like tell me sort of the progression of how things go, usually. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, so I don’t I don’t always do intuitive eating with all clients. But I feel like pieces of it are helpful for most clients. Some clients come to me and only wanna learn about that. And so we work with that.

So if it’s someone that says, I’m tired of dieting, I’ve been dieting all my life I’ve tried, and they rattle off like 10 different diet names. They’re like, I’ve tried all of these and nothing’s working. I just need help. And and, and so I introduce intuitive eating to them. And I kind of tell them about the framework and the principles and I ask, is this a direction that you want to go? Does this resonate with you? Does this sound interesting to you? Do you think this will be helpful for you, and if they indicate they want to go that direction, then we start exploring that.

And oftentimes I have them just start out for a week, just tracking what they eat, not the portion sizes just kind of generally what they eat. And then they rate hunger and fullness and also satiety, like their satisfaction factor. And just do that for like three to five days. And then they come back and we figure out what worked and what didn’t. And usually just by tracking and being able to pay attention more to those hunger and fullness cues, they can pick up patterns that weren’t working for them. So sometimes people find, oh, I ate a really tiny breakfast. And then I was super hungry at 4pm, because I didn’t eat enough. And then I ate from 4pm until I went to bed. And so we’re like, oh, well, you know, that sounds out of balance. You know, you were under fueled in the first part of the day, you felt fatigued, you weren’t able to concentrate, you were unable to train, and then you’re overeating in the latter part of the day. So let’s switch that up. And they can pick up those patterns just by starting to implement the honor your hunger honor your fullness type of principles. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, it’s probably really helpful for them to see it on paper when they’re logging in. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah. Yeah.

Neely Quinn 

So then they do that you guys make some tweaks, and then what starts happening? 

Marisa Michael 

So they start healing their relationship with food a little bit, especially if it’s been a chronic dieter. They start to realize all those diet rules that were in their head, that were telling them how and what to eat. But those diet rules didn’t really come from anything valid and weren’t serving them. So usually, they start to uncover things like oh, my gosh, I realized a diet rule was telling me that I can’t eat past 6pm, even though I was very hungry, past 6pm. So when they start to honor their fullness, or honor their hunger, they realize they need to eat, and they feel a lot better, you know, and their training improves, and their concentration improves, and their mood improves. So they start to kind of uncover little things like that, like, I mean, I’ve I see clients sometimes, you know, multiple times, like even up to 10 times or more just kind of working through this process. And they always come back. And they’re like, I realized I had another diet rule that I didn’t know was even there. And I don’t know why I was following it. So that’s really empowering for them to realize, Oh, my gosh, if I can tune into my body more, and my — trust my body, because my body knows what it needs and how much it needs. And when I need it. I don’t have to follow those diet rules anymore. And that’s, that’s a pretty empowering for them. That’s actually a pretty cool process. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, for sure. It sounds like it really is very much an unlearning of things that people pick up along the way on their life in their life. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a really accurate way to put it. Yeah. Unlearning all those unhelpful things that either weren’t based –, or weren’t serving them well. And, yeah, an example might be like, lots of us were raised to clean our plate. You know, that our parents always told us, you know, eat all your food, clean your plate. And I have adult clients that decades later, still clean their plate, and they’re eating beyond what they need to. Or they’re cleaning their plate, and they’re still hungry, but they feel like they can’t get seconds because they clean their plate. And that’s all they get.

Neely Quinn

Oh, wow. 

Marisa Michael

And that’s kind of an unlearning, where you’re realizing, oh, just because it’s on my plate doesn’t mean my body needs exactly that amount. Maybe I need less than maybe I need more. And that’s a really ingrained rule in their head that they’ve been following because they were raised that way. So it’s just it’s just a really interesting process that unfolds where they realize things were not serving them well, and trying to do that and learning process and just trust their body more. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, totally even down to like, what and how much they put on their plate was probably learned at some point. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah. And sometimes that can be helpful. Yeah. You know, like you and I both work with athletes and with climbers. And sometimes you need that practical education piece of understanding, oh, you know, you need this many carbohydrates, this many grams of protein, or this is the portion size that would work to fuel your body. So it’s not like you can only rely on intuition. You know, you want that practical nutrition to inform what you’re selecting, but you do want those internal cues to be able to help and guide you.  

Neely Quinn 

Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I mean, I can relate with that too. Because I was taught, you know, as most of us are, you need to clean your plate, there are children starving in Africa. Like basically be careful for what you’re given and don’t waste food. And then I was a binge eater for a while and like years where I would just eat everything on my plate, and then everything that was leftover on other people’s plates, and it was an issue that because that was what I was told, and so I hear you and, and that’s a lot of times what I’m talking about with my clients. Like what they’ve learned as children and how it’s just come so far in their lives. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, what you learned as a child and also what, what diets have taught you or diet culture or, you know, messages you hear in the media and everything. Yeah, and that’s actually a big part of intuitive eating, is giving yourself unconditional permission to eat. So your binge experience, thank you for sharing that I know that can feel kind of vulnerable to share things like that. So it sounds like you didn’t have unconditional permission to eat as much as you want as much as you needed. And so the bingeing was kind of a response to that. 

Neely Quinn 

Definitely, yeah. 

Marisa Michael 

Intuitive eating definitely addresses that aspect of things. Yeah.

Neely Quinn 

Yeah. And I’ll tell you my experience with that, and then I’d love to know, the intuitive eating aspect of that. So what I realized was so that it partly was about a control thing, like I wasn’t allowed to be eating that much food. And so it was sort of a rebellion against that. And once I finally just gave myself permission to eat whatever I wanted, and like make it public, sometimes even where I’d be like, I’m going to eat all of this. And I don’t want anybody to say anything about it. And nobody ever did. But, yeah, but then that’s when it and when it started to end. And now I don’t really, I don’t I don’t have a problem with it. Sometimes I will just say, you know, I’m going to eat a lot of food right now, because I feel like it and then there’s no guilt about it. It’s fine. But yeah, it was just a mind set shift. But what would intuitive eating —

 Marisa Michael 

That´s super interesting. How did you come to that idea that you needed to give yourself permission to eat? Do you know what? What prompted that? 

Neely Quinn 

I think, I think it was just like going through that cycle of having the resistance to it, then giving into the bingeing, then feeling super guilty, afterward, restricting and then bingeing again. And I was like, I don’t know, I just kind of the repetitiveness of it. I think I just started to understand the pattern a little bit. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, that’s super insightful. And that’s what is really, really common with a lot of people’s experiences. And if there’s any kind of restriction presence, it usually does lead to that kind of a rebellion mindset, you know, so. And dieting inherently is restrictive. You know, diets tell you, you need to limit either when you eat or how much you eat, or what it is, or all of the above. And so if there’s a restriction present in any way, even if you’re not following a specific diet, so sometimes people just tell themselves, like, you know, I can’t trust myself around cookies, or I can’t trust myself around peanut butter, so I don’t have it in the house.

Neely Quinn

Right.

Marisa Michael

That’s not available to them, they don’t let themselves have it. That gives power to the food. And that creates that restriction that creates the, almost the longing or the desire, the craving, or the drive to actually get it. And so that creates the bingeing cycle. So it’s really interesting when people learn that to reduce binge eating and cravings, you actually have to allow yourself to have those foods that feel forbidden or scary to you. And that’s actually what decreases the cravings and the bingeings. And that seems counterintuitive. It seems like, Oh, well, if I can’t control myself around it, I shouldn’t have it. But really, it’s the opposite. And that’s backed up — your experience is backed up by a ton of research that shows that if there is a restriction present, it will lead to that binge eating or that craving or the out of control type of feeling. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah. And, and I think that obviously, there is a really big emotional component here. But I also think that and I’m sure that this is part of your education with your clients, there’s a really big, physiological aspect to it as well, where if you’re not giving yourself the nutrients and the number of calories or whatever that you need through the day, like your body’s going to try to compensate for that in some way. And sometimes it shows up as a binge on whatever.

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, exactly. You nailed it. Yeah, there’s this biological drive to get enough food. So if you’re denying yourself enough food or the right types of food, you — Your body will win, you know, it’ll, it’ll drive you to overeat or to eat those things. That happens really commonly and people are restricting carbohydrates, because your body does need enough carbohydrates, and it really likes that it’s fuel. So that’s why people if they’re on a low carb diet, they’re like, Oh, I’m craving is carbs, you know, I overeat and carbs or bingeing on carbs.

Yeah, that’s because there’s this physiological drive your body needs them. And learning about your body and learning about that biology is really helpful for people because then they feel like — they feel like this weight has been released, like, Oh, I’m not broken. You know, like because we’ve always been taught you have to be disciplined around food. And about exercise and your weight. And we honor that in our society being disciplined or eating, right or exercising, you know, enough or whatever it is. And that feels very shameful to feel like you’re failing at that.

Neely Quinn

Yes.

Marisa Michael

And so to understand your biology and to know, oh, my body is actually protecting me, it’s telling me to eat more, because I’ve been denying it. That can be pretty freeing, knowing that it’s not that you just don’t have quote, unquote, willpower or discipline. 

Neely Quinn 

Yes, yes, exactly. But that’s always like a huge aha moment with my clients. When I’m like, well, you’re just restricting carbs for breakfast and lunch. But then you’re snacking like you were saying, like, you know, you snack from four o’clock until bedtime, and you’re making up for all those carbs at that time anyway. So why not just give yourself the carbs in the morning – in the afternoon when your body is actually needing them for exercise and daily life? 

Marisa Michael 

Exactly. Yeah. So that’s a perfect example of like, the gentle nutrition principle, like understanding basic feeling principles, or basic nutrition, can tie in with the honoring your hunger, you know, the satisfaction, like all of these things, because the intuitive eating principles seem sort of emotional or nebulous on the surface. And but then when you get down to it, you’re like, Oh, this is all about really honoring my body and fueling it the way it needs to be in order to do that. Sometimes people do need the nutrition education piece if they’re struggling with that part of it. 

Neely Quinn 

Well, yeah, especially as athletes too, because I’m sure you have to educate them a lot on what it actually takes to fuel climbing and training for climbing. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes intuitive eating doesn’t work for certain situations. So for example, like with athletes that are listening, especially if you’re an endurance athlete, we know that endurance exercise, like prolonged endurance exercise often suppresses appetite. So if you’re trying to do intuitive eating, and you’re like, well, it says, honor my hunger, but I don’t have hunger, but I just rode my bike for four hours, I know I need to eat, then, you know, you can’t really use that honor your hunger principle, you can’t lean on that as much, you know, you have to actually use just practical nutrition practices. And you just know, in your head, oh, I have to feel my body.

Neely Quinn

Right. 

Marisa Michael

And same with like, eating disorders or prolonged dieting, you know, lots of times they’re out of touch with their hunger and fullness cues, or they don’t have them, or, especially with restrictive type eating disorders. If they have restricted for a long time, if they start trying to feed their body, what their body actually needs, they get full really quickly, and they struggle with even eating enough because they feel so full. So in that case, you do have to override that, you know, feel your fullness principle and just eat even though you feel full, because you know, your body needs it.

Neely Quinn

Right.

Marisa Michael

So there are times when not all of these principles apply all the time. But in general, the framework is a pretty useful one for a lot of people. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. And on the topic of like, not having those hunger cues, one of the questions that came up when you were describing the 10 principles was for most people, well, most people consumes some caffeine during the day. And that’s an appetite suppressant. And I find that a lot of times people can even quote, like, get away with not eating, just because they’re not hungry, just because they’ve had their morning coffee or their afternoon coffee or whatever. And so what do you — how do you counsel people on that? 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, so we just kind of again, look at the patterns, you know, what’s going on? Oh, are you not eating enough? Oh, why is that? Maybe it’s because you had the caffeine and you feel energized enough with the caffeine. But you can look at other things like, Oh, you know, what’s, what’s going on? What are the consequences of you not eating enough? Or what are your experiences with that? And maybe they’re like, Oh, well, when the caffeine kind of wears off, I actually feel really sluggish and lethargic. I don’t have enough energy, I can’t concentrate. And so you’re like, but you know, maybe maybe food would be helpful. So looking at these kinds of things, I think that’s a really good — good example.

You know, medications can affect hunger and fullness. You know, there are lots of different things where maybe these aren’t quite perfect principles that would fit your life but again, that informed like nutrition piece will help you just be more attuned to your body. That caffeine piece is huge. I actually saw this intermittent fasting thread on Facebook that people were like, Oh, I intermittent fasting. I feel amazing, because I drink three cups of coffee in the morning, so my day is fine. And I’m like, well, of course. Of course you feel okay if you have the caffeine You know, but what if you could just eat food, you know, and you’re just missing out on a lot of nutrients if you’re not eating enough food.

Neely Quinn 

Well, not to mention that if like maybe some people can get away with doing the coffee instead of food for some period of time. But it seems like, in my experience, as you get older, people start to be less tolerant to that behavior. And they start to get more and more tired and more and more, you know, their recovery gets worse and worse. And so maybe it works for like a 20 year old, but it may not work for a 40 year old, or a 30 year old. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah. Yeah. And we know that food is really important for athletic performance. And for recovery, and for injury prevention, or prevention of relative energy deficiency in sport. So, you know, fueling is key. We also know caffeine is really important, or really helpful for athletic performance, you know, it can help you delay your attend to fatigue, it can help with your mental acuity, like it can help with a lot of different things. So just knowing what’s going on and understanding how to feel your body, but maybe use the caffeine in addition, or whatever, just taking it like a personalized approach to figure out what’s best for that person.

Neely Quinn 

Yeah. The other appetite, sort of altering questions I had was about sleep. So I don’t know about you, but most of my clients come to me sleeping between like six and seven hours a night. And a lot of times their sleep is really interrupted. So it’s not really very high quality. And we know that when you don’t sleep, your hunger and satiety hormones get sort of flipped on their heads. And so we, when we don’t sleep enough, we have more cravings for carbs, and more cravings for food in general. And so how, how does that play into intuitive eating when you’re asking people to, to learn to rely on their own hunger cues? In that sense, if they’re not getting enough sleep?

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I feel like intuitive eating is a pretty holistic, like comprehensive way of looking at the body. So I think sleep would be looped into that, as well as things like just your general mood or relationship with food and with your body and with other people. So if somebody isn’t getting enough sleep, and it really is affecting their cravings, oftentimes, the — that restriction leads to binge eating principle still comes into play.

So it’s like, well, you’re not getting enough sleep. Maybe your cortisol is heightened, that’s causing you to have increased carbohydrate craving, go ahead and eat the carbohydrates. So you’re not avoiding it, and then seeking it out, or bingeing on it, or trying to eat all the foods except the carbs. You know, so I think it’s still important to honor the cravings, but also look at the root cause of the cravings, you know, what’s really happening?

Neely Quinn

Yea

Marisa Michael

You know, I, I do that a lot with clients where they come to me and they express, you know, I have all these cravings or I´m bingeing, what’s the matter with me, and we always look at where is the restriction. Is the restriction present in any way. And if it is, we lift it, you know, slowly and carefully if we need to, or figuring out what the root cause of that is, which may be a diet rule from childhood, it might be lost sleep, it ight be that their body is in a stress response, you know, anything like that. 

Neely Quinn 

Right. Okay, moving on to other questions, besides the appetite changes. One question I have is about the first principle is rejecting diet mentality, which I totally understand. And with my own clients, I want to make it as you know, easy as possible and comfortable and sustainable. Whatever diet changes we’re making. However, there are some people who want to lose weight. And when you look at their BMI and their body fat percentage, it’s appropriate for them to do so. And so how do you get around that if their goal really is I want to lose weight, or I want to lose fat, and you agree with them that that is something that they could do? And like, what — where does intuitive eating come into that? 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, that’s a great question. Okay, so to to stay true to the intuitive eating model. The intuitive eating framework is weight neutral, meaning it is not designed to lose weight. It, it says no matter what weight you are, if you gain If you lose, whatever, just follow the intuitive eating principles. So it’s very weight neutral, it’s very health at every size. And it’s not weight centric in any way. So I do see some dietitians and nutritionists saying like lose weight with intuitive eating. So if they’re telling you that they’re not really following the true intuitive eating framework. I wouldn’t recommend going with that concept, because that’s not what intuitive eating is. Intuitive eating at its heart is healing relationship with body and food.

However, I am in this tricky situation, as a dietitian, where I do eating disorders, I do intuitive eating, I try to help people heal that relationship with food and body. And yet, I’m also a sports dietitian, which means sometimes people have to make weight. Sometimes they actually do need to change their body composition, and that’s actually appropriate and ethical to do so. So then I sort of, I don’t say, we’re going to do intuitive eating with this because it’s not appropriate. And that’s not what intuitive eating is for. Instead, we do more practical, like, oh, how can we like maybe periodize your nutrition, so you’re going to be lighter during the comp phase of your your training, you know, where you’re actually racing or competing. Or maybe you do need to lose a little bit of weight. Let’s do this safely and carefully and make sure that you don’t have any eating disorder history, or it’s not going to trigger one. And some intuitive eating principles can work with those people, you know, like, honoring your hunger and honoring your fullness and being satisfying are actually really helpful for weight loss. But I don’t implement the whole intuitive eating framework with those kinds of clients, because it’s just, to me, I feel like it’s disingenuous and not appropriate. Because that’s not really what intuitive eating is all about.

Neely Quinn 

Mm hmm. That’s really interesting. That’s a pretty, that’s a pretty honest answer. And I I’m wondering what those dietitians and nutritionists who are promoting weight loss or fat loss with intuitive eating would say to that, like, do you know what they might counter with that? 

Marisa Michael 

Um, I’m not sure that’s a good question. I just feel like intuitive eating, really´s supposed to be about just honoring, like tuning into body — body trust. And so if you’re trying to manipulate your body composition or weight, you’re not doing body trust anymore necessarily. Not to say that that’s a bad goal, sometimes that’s completely appropriate. Especially if it’s for a sporting competition.

We do know, so there’s, there’s sort of these extreme camps of thinking. And I sort of fall in the middle, where there’s Health at Every Size dieticians and intuitive eating dietitians that say that weight loss is actually unethical, it causes more harm than good. And we have a lot of data that support that. But there’s another camp of dietitians that say weight loss is totally appropriate, it can help lower cholesterol, it can help improve blood glucose, you know, things like that. And we have a lot of data to support that too. So I kind of fall in the middle where it makes sense for some people to lose weight, or it might be totally appropriate for them to lose weight, especially as a sports dietitian, my my – excuse me- , my whole job is to support the athlete, you know, get them to be a better performer and a better competitor, but also protect their health. So if that means a little bit of weight loss, that might be totally appropriate.

But if it’s a client that just wants to intuitive eating just wants to, you know, get out of that diet cycle, then we would never even talk about weight loss. And I actually do have a lot of clients that come to me and say, I want to do that intuitive eating, but I’m a little bit scared, I might gain weight. And so we do talk through that and their fears and what that fear behind weight gain is and what it means for them. And there’s different outcomes. If you really go all in on intuitive eating, sometimes people lose weight, because they had been bingeing and overeating. And now they learned how to honor their fullness and cope with their emotions with kindness rather than food. Sometimes people gain weight because they’ve been hurt, holding their weight artificially low. And once they start actually eating normally, they do gain some weight. So we talk about that. And sometimes they need to go to therapy to talk through that piece. Because that is kind of scary, to gain weight in our society, you know, it feels like a very scary thing to do – you feel like you’re being judged. So it’s really interesting, like I see these two extremes, and I sort of fall into the middle depending on which client I’m working with and what’s appropriate for them. But I don’t think it would be ethical for me to deny an athlete be tools and the skills and the nutrition therapy to manipulate their body composition or weight if it was safe and appropriate for them and it helped them with their sporting goals.

Neely Quinn 

Right. Yeah, seems like what a lot of nutritionists and dietitians are practicing is some sense of, you know, intuitive eating, whether we’re calling it that or not. And so as a as a result of that, like getting people to eat healthily, with, you know, the sound nutritional practices and listening to their bodies, like as a result, sometimes people, like you said, might lose some fat just because they’re eating better.

Marisa Michael

Yeah.

Neely Quinn

But it’s but what you’re saying is with intuitive eating, it’s just not the goal. It’s never the goal, right? 

Marisa Michael 

It’s never the goal, it’s very weight neutral. And you’re not even really supposed to, you know, if you talk about it with clients, it’s in a way that’s supportive of their, of their goals and their needs, and also understanding, helping understand their fears of gaining weight, or their shame around their body image. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, well, it’s interesting, one of my friends has struggled with eating disorders and disordered eating behaviors for a very long time, and has kept themselves at a pretty low weight. And recently, they decided to start doing this. And they read books about it and got counseling for intuitive eating and started incorporating more food as a result. And now they have gained weight, and are having sort of a hard time with that. But mostly, they’re seeing huge benefits from it. Like they have better energy, more mental clarity. They’re climbing harder than they’ve ever climbed before

Marisa Michael

That´s awesome.

Neely Quinn

Like, by far, and it’s really incredible to watch that. And one time, they said to me, like, I think you should probably get into this. And for me, it’s a little bit harder, because I am on a medication that alters my, my appetite. And so I can’t really — like if I’m on a dose of it, like I can’t trust myself with how much I want to eat. Because when I first got on it, I gained like 15 pounds. And those weren’t 15 pounds, I needed to gain. And so I think that it works for some people, and it doesn’t work for other people.

Marisa Michael 

Yeah. And the — Yeah, and I love that you said that, because there are exceptions. And there are, I mean, it’s not a one size fits all thing. But I think even if people pick up one or two principles and can apply them that can be really helpful. But the the gentle nutrition piece of the intuitive a framework is actually pretty brilliant. Because it says honor your hunger, it says honor your fullness, it says challenge that food police, respect your body, all these things, but it also says, oh, by the way, you also need to fill your body with good nutrition to truly honor your body.

You know, because one of the principles is respect your body. And how could you do that if you weren’t feeling right, so I think it’s kind of cool that they have that gentle nutrition piece in place.

But that’s, that’s really cool that your friend had that experience, I actually see that a lot with people where they start to learn about intuitive eating, and they do feel better. And it’s actually really evidence based. So there’s about 120 studies, right now studying intuitive eating, and it showed they have better health outcomes. So like less stress, less anxiety around food, even things like improved HDL cholesterol, which is the good cholesterol, improve blood glucose management. So things you wouldn’t expect from just sort of eating how you trust your body. You know, that seems sort of squishy, it seems like how could I do that and have better health outcomes. But it’s backed by a lot of evidence, which is pretty cool. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah. And that’s actually the phrase you just said, trusting your body. That’s one of the things that my friend said that they have finally, for the first time in a really long time is that they trust their body that is going to take care of them. And tell them that right thing. 

Marisa Michael 

That´s so cool. And yeah. And did your friend say like, how? How did that impact your friend? Like did it free up any mental space? You know, did it — I don’t know. Did did they express that at all? 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think — yes, definitely. They feel less anxious. And I think that that’s probably also in part due to just getting the amount of calories and nourishment they need. And hadn’t been giving themselves for so long. So yeah, definitely.

Marisa Michael 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if you see this in your practice, but I have a lot of people come to me that are very stressed and very anxious, and are thinking about food all the time and thinking about their body all the time. And when they can learn how to implement this intuitive eating, their mental space is freed and they feel a lot better and they feel empowered, and they feel like they can trust their body, which is a really neat feeling. It’s almost like the end goal is to not have to think about your food like you eat when you’re hungry and then four or five hours hours later, you eat again, because you’re hungry, you know, and it almost becomes an issue, which is really amazing.

Neely Quinn 

It is amazing. I have, well, I have a lot more questions for you. But um —

Marisa Michael

Keep going.

Neely Quinn

But yeah, I had a co worker once who, I tried to work with him on his diet because he really wanted to lose weight. And he was legitimately, he had some fat to lose, but, uh, he couldn’t get in touch with his hunger. And I don’t think that that’s super uncommon. And you’ve even mentioned it, but like he didn’t feel the — the typical signs of hunger that one might feel. And I’m wondering if you’ve worked with people like that? And how if you work with them using intuitive eating?

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, Mm hmm. Yeah, hunger is a tricky one. And same with fullness. And yeah, if you don’t have any hunger cues, or don’t understand what they mean from chronic dieting, or medication or excessive exercise, or whatever the reason, it’s really hard to tell yourself to eat if you don’t have that hunger cue. So one of the ways to overcome that is to eat regularly. Often people have not been eating regularly in those situations. So the key is just like eat a — eat a balanced full breakfast with a mix of macronutrients and some variety of food. Do that for lunch, do that for dinner, just feed yourself at regular intervals, and also some snacks. And your body actually rewards you by starting to give you hunger cues that you didn’t have before. So that’s one tip or one trick is just eating regularly as if you had hunger at regular intervals, and then your body actually does start to give you those cues. And another thing is just sometimes some education around what hunger feels like. So sometimes if you ask people, you know, how would you describe hunger? I don’t know. How would you describe it? You probably are really in tune to your hunger cues. You probably know what it feels like to just name a few like off the top of your head like what do you feel like when you’re hungry? 

Neely Quinn 

My stomach is it feels empty. And sometimes I grumbles and I if I get really hungry. I’ll get a little bit lightheaded. I get a little anxious.

Marisa Michael

Yeah. Yeah, that’s perfect. Yeah. So a lot of times if someone if you say to someone that is out of tune with their hunger cues, you ask them — I asked, what, what how do you know you’re hungry? What does that feel like to you? And they either draw a blank or they just say my stomach feels empty or growls and that’s literally the only hunger cue that they can identify. And so it’s just helping them understand their other hunger cues such as what you just mentioned, like feeling lightheaded, sometimes people feel a little bit dizzy, foggy mind, like you can’t concentrate very well. Getting irritable, you know, hangry. And sometimes even just thinking about food is a sign of hunger, you know, when it’s maybe been a couple hours since you last ate? And you’re like, I wonder what’s in the fridge? Like, uhh, what do I want from lunch, you know, that sometimes people don’t think that that’s hunger, because they don’t feel anything physically. But that’s a sign of hunger is just starting to think about food. So just helping them identify that there are lots of signs of hunger, what that might look like in their body is helpful for them.

Neely Quinn

That’s great. And I think that that’s a less common problem than people feeling hungry all the time, like you’re describing, you know, like it just popping up in their heads all the time and thinking about their next meal and having sugar cravings. So I’m assuming that that is more common in your practice?

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, yeah. People thinking about food all the time. If you feel yourself thinking about food all the time, that means you’re undernourished. And or you’re restricting. You’re on some sort of a diet rule, or there’s some diet mentality happening there. Yeah, that’s been shown in a lot of research, too. There’s this famous landmark study, you’ve probably heard of that. The Minnesota starvation study where it was — I think it was the Vietnam War. So there were basically conscientious objectors that didn’t want to fight in the war. And so they volunteered to do this study where their food was restricted. And that was one of the hallmarks, they just were thinking about food. They would like look up magazines with food, they look on recipes, they took, like, food and like pinned pictures up on the wall, like they were always thinking about food, because yeah, so that’s actually one of the things I see a lot with eating disorder clients, where there’s a restriction component is, if they’re like, always browsing recipes, and they’re looking on pinterest, and they’re thinking about food all the time. That probably means your body’s not getting enough.

Neely Quinn 

Oh my gosh, what if you’re obsessed with the Great British baking show does that — 

Marisa Michael 

That’s just a fun show. So yeah, you’re good.

Neely Quinn

Okay that´s good. 

Marisa Michael 

Not gonna diagnose you like right now. No, I mean, it’s fun to think about food. But if you’re like, if it’s constantly on your mind, and it’s sort of haunting you that that means you’re probably not getting enough.

Neely Quinn 

Yeah. And it seems like a lot of the principles might help you with that, like, understanding when you’re hungry so that you can feed yourself at appropriate times, and then like gentle nutrition, so understanding proper nutrition principles, and probably a lot of them.

Marisa Michael 

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Neely Quinn 

So my next question is about food sensitivities. 

Marisa Michael 

Okay, yeah.

 Neely Quinn 

There are people who have sensitivities to foods or intolerances to them. And for instance, let’s take gluten. And so people have gluten filled cookies, and they make them feel terrible. And so that’s part of the reason why they don’t have the cookies in the house.

Marisa Michael

Yeah. 

Neely Quinn

But you’re but you were saying before that it’s really important for people to have these foods that they don’t — that they feel restricted from or resistance to.

Marisa Michael

Yeah.

Neely Quinn

So how did — how does that play in with food sensitivities with intuitive eating? 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, that’s a great question. Okay. So I’ve got a lot of facts.

One is, okay, so again, coming back to that gentle nutrition principle. So if you have a true allergy, or a food sensitivity, or a true medical dietary need, like maybe diabetes, where you have to eat a certain way, gentle nutrition means, of course, you would want to nourish your body, and, and restrict those foods. But the restriction is born from a medical necessity, instead of an arbitrary diet rule. So in that restriction, in that sense, it’s not, it’s not really a restriction, it’s just eating what makes sense for your body to take care of your body, so it doesn’t get ill. And so intuitive eating does say like, of course, you should not eat foods that won´t make you truly sick. You know, like, don’t, don’t eat foods that are medically contraindicated for you. And so yeah, like, so if you were gluten intolerant, and you had the gluten cookies out of your house, hopefully that wouldn’t feel like they were calling to you, you know, like, hopefully, that wouldn’t be like a restriction. That’s just an appropriate elimination in your diet to take care of your bowels. Does that kind of make sense? 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And I think that’s what I thought it would say- I just kind of wanted it to be said. 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah. Right. But there’s another piece of food sensitivities, that’s really interesting. Where, if you have been chronically dieting, or binging and restricting, or gone through any kind of an eating disorder, or are in a state of low energy availability, like that relative energy deficiency in sport that I mentioned, any of those things, when you’re under fueling can affect the gut. Because the gut is an active organ that needs energy, it needs calories. So it’s really really common in eating disorders and chronic dieting, to have food — perceived food insensitivities, but it’s really, or sorry, perceived food sensitivities. But it actually is just the gut needs more nourishment, it needs consistent food on a regular basis and enough food. This happens really often with refeeding, with eating disorders, where people experienced bloating, diarrhea, constipation, nausea, they feel terrible, because they’re eating enough, but their gut cannot quite manage it yet. And the only way through that is to make sure they just keep eating, and then the gut can be adapted and trained, and then it can tolerate it. I’ve seen this a lot with other clients to where they think they have a food sensitivity. So they eliminate things like dairy, or gluten or anything else. Try to you know, kind of troubleshoot on their own. And then if they add it back, your gut has actually downregulated your ability to digest those foods. So then the sensitivity becomes worse. The intolerance is actually exacerbated by that elimination diet. So in that case, it’s like, you know, if you do have a food sensitivity, or you think you have one, go to a dietician that specializes in gi health, because they can guide you through that to make sure you don’t actually make it worse.

Neely Quinn 

Mm hmm. That’s a really tricky one. Because it’s like, well, I feel terrible, and I have these digestive issues and I’m fatigued all the time. And I I want to take out whatever food it is that they suspect or that you suspect with them, and knowing that it might make it worse later. But it’s it’s just a hard thing because there’s no cure for it right?

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, as a default, I always suspect under fueling first before an actual food sensitivity. And sometimes it’s some people think it might be gluten or dairy. And really, it’s just fodmaps. So that can be eliminated for a short period of time and then added back in, there’s a certain protocol to do it. So there’s a lot of GI dietitians that know how to guide you through like a low fodmap diet process. And so it’s hard to kind of willy nilly guess like which foods that might be? If it could be a number of foods, or it’s just fodmaps? So, yeah — 

Neely Quinn 

Well, and, you know, to comfort people also who have suspected food sensitivities, like, sometimes it’s just one type of cheese, or one type of grain, or, you know, like, it’s pasta, but not bread, or things like that. And you can really just sort of eliminate or reduce one, one single thing, and it’s not life altering.

Marisa Michael 

Right. And, and sometimes, another thing with food sensitivities is to always figure out if there’s something else, causing the food sensitivity. So for example, if someone is in a heightened state of stress or anxiety that usually affects the gut. So it may not be the food, it might just be that you’re in a stress response, trauma, and a history of trauma or abuse or assault, also is really heavily tied to food intolerances and gastrointestinal distress. And so just looking at the whole picture figuring out like, is it the food? Or is something else going on? You know, have you had a big life change lately? Have you been through COVID? You know, it could be a lot of things besides just food?

Neely Quinn

Yeah. 

Marisa Michael

So looking at the whole — yeah. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, and I know that we got a little bit off topic there. But I do think that’s really great information. So I’m glad we went there. I do want to talk a little bit more about Health at Every Size. And this has been on social media a lot where people are, what, what my understanding of it is, is that you’re not supposed to, like you said, you’re not supposed to lose weight or diet. It’s not good for you or effective at all long term. And so now people are sort of diet shaming people, for even trying. So can we talk a little bit about that just for a few minutes? Like, what’s the premise there? And what are your thoughts on it? 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, okay. So I don’t want to misrepresent the Health at Every Size movement. I’m not a certified Health at Every Size dietitian. So I hope I’m speaking correctly about it. But I have, I have read quite a bit about it and, and know people that are healthy at Every Size practitioners. And so as I understand that, the basic premise is, again, like, like what you just said, it’s not weight centric, it’s just accepting your body where it is not trying to manipulate it or lose weight or lose fat, and being able to respect your health where it is.

Because we do know that there is data that backs up this movement, we do know that regardless of your BMI, or regardless of your weight, you can still be healthy. So if someone is quote, unquote, overweight, but they implement some lifestyle changes, like maybe they were overweight, but they had diabetes, or prediabetes, and they also had hypertension. The old medical model says, well, you just need to lose weight, and that will fix those problems, you know, that’ll fix those metabolic problems. And the newer, more comprehensive research where you is really seeing, actually, if you do some lifestyle changes like exercise regularly, eat healthfully, reduce stress, don’t smoke, get enough sleep, those lifestyle interventions in and of themselves, help with better health outcomes. It’s not the weight loss. So you can be at reduced risk for chronic disease like heart disease and diabetes, if you can even just implement some lifestyle changes with or without weight loss. So that’s kind of the Health at Every Size model that you don’t need to lose weight. And that dieting actually is a predictor for weight gain. Most people regain what they lost. So it’s kind of like why are we trying to tell people to lose weight if it’s not working and it’s not helpful for them? So that’s how I understand the Health at Every Size movement. 

Neely Quinn 

Okay. I, I just challenge it a lot in my mind, just because I know I know that nutrition principles that people come in to me with and like we’ve been talking about, we’ve been mis-educated or like under educated really about nutrition, through our lives. And I feel like what happens is people who are, you know, like obese or overweight, lose weight, doing something extreme, and then they just go back to their old habits, and then they gain it back. But it’s not necessarily that their body is — because I, I personally lost 30 pounds and haven’t gained it back. And I’m not eating disordered. And so like, on a very personal level, I know that it’s possible. I know, 30 pounds is a ton. But, but what I’m saying is, it seems like people just need to be well, better educated on how to keep that fat off, rather than saying, well, this didn’t work in the past for people. So we shouldn’t tell people that they should ever tried to lose fat, even if it would make their lives more comfortable doing so. 

Marisa Michael 

Right. Yeah. And so that’s kind of where I fall in the middle where like somebody like you, of course, that would make sense if you want to do that. And that’s something that’s part of your value system that you just want to lose weight, and you can do it safely. The Health at Every Size movement, as I understand it is saying, usually, the overwhelming data says that most people lose it cannot keep it off. So like you’re like the exception to the rule. So it’s kind of like trying to go based off of evidence of like, well, this actually doesn’t work for like, I think 95% of the people is the number or something like that. So why are we prescribing these like harmful things, and if it is harmful for them, truly, so like lots of medical doctors kind of do this weight centered model where they’re saying: Oh, you need to go lose weight, but then they tell people kind of almost to do an eating disorder, you know, like you said, like, follow these extreme things that don’t really work. And then they’d regain the weight. So that’s causing harm to the person. So the Health at Every Size model is basically saying: Why are we doing this to people? Like let’s let’s not do this, let’s make sure we do no harm first.

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, wouldn’t the answer to that just be like giving people sound nutrition advice, instead of just saying don’t try at all.

Marisa Michael 

Hmm, I think that might be a simplistic view, because there’s more to losing weight than just the nutrition component. You know, as we’ve been talking about through this whole time, there’s a mental and emotional component. There’s also a very strong genetic component, you know, the setpoint theory where maybe your body is just going to be a certain weight, and it wants to be at a certain weight. And that might be bigger than what some random BMI chart is telling you that it should be. So I think it’s really complex and deep and kind of messy. And I think good nutrition can help for some people. And some people implement good nutrition principles and are exercising regularly and doing everything they can and maybe won’t even lose a pound. And that —

Neely Quinn

Yeah.

Marisa Michael

So I think Health at Every Size is kind of a more compassionate point of view.

Neely Quinn 

Yeah. And, and I am not in any way saying that we should not accept our bodies for what they are. I am —

Marisa Michael

Oh, yeah.

Neely Quinn

— in full support of that. It’s just always confused me, because I know what people are doing to lose weight. And I know how unsustainable it is, and if —

Marisa Michael

Right.

Neely Quinn

And when I say giving people sound nutrition advice, I mean, all of the things that we’ve been talking about, like this holistic view of how to eat healthily for your body. But anyway, that’s a total aside, I really appreciate your input–

Marisa Michael

Yeah, it´s great.

Neely Quinn

— because it gives me a better understanding. Anything else that you wanted to talk about in regards to intuitive eating? 

Marisa Michael 

Yeah, I just think if this conversation is interesting to you, I would suggest exploring it a little more. It can be really helpful. Even if you don’t want to go all in to some of the principles just to find even some of them can be pretty helpful for people.

There’s a book called intuitive eating by Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch, at least, that’s kind of the intuitive eating bible that they wrote.

And then there’s also a companion workbook that has a lot of journaling prompts, that’s really helpful. If you’re interested in the Health at Every Size model, or just exploring what that is, there’s a book called Health at Every Size, it’s by Linda Bacon.

And there’s a new book out really good book called: Anti-Diet, and that’s by Christy Harrison. So that kind of goes through the history of diets and the diet industry and how it came about and goes into depth about BMI and talks about intuitive eating and all these things. So that’s actually a really interesting book, if anybody’s interested in kind of diving into that whole world of intuitive eating. 

Neely Quinn 

Okay, yeah. And then I’ll put those in the show notes as links.

Marisa Michael

Yeah.

Neely Quinn

Well, and then tell people how they can contact you. And are you — Are you taking new clients right now?

Marisa Michael 

I am, yeah, I take new clients. And depending on which state you are in the licensure, I’m doing video chat visits with clients, I also have some on demand courses. So if you want to learn about intuitive eating through an on demand, self paced course, I have those available. 

I have a website that I created called nutritionforclimbers.com, and that has some intuitive eating and disordered eating resources on there.

And I also wrote a book that was published this year called: Nutrition for Climbers – Fuel For The Send. And that’s through Fixed Pin Publishing. And that’s also on my website as well. So that actually has a whole section on intuitive eating, eating disorders, relative energy deficiency in sport in there.

And I do live classes, and I’ll probably run the next one in February or March. So I do like a four week mix of live class and on demand, intuitive eating course, which is been a lot of fun. People really enjoy being able to kind of have a support group, like an online support group and talk and get some live sessions to get their questions answered. 

Neely Quinn 

That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s great. And I’ll put links to all those things in the show notes. But, but either way, nutritionforclimbers.com, that’s where they can find kind of all of this stuff in one place. 

Marisa Michael 

Yes. Uh huh.

Neely Quinn 

Okay. And then where are you on social media?

 Marisa Michael 

I’m on Instagram. My handle is @RealNutritionDietitian, because my business name is Real Nutrition. And they have a second Instagram account. That’s @NutritionForClimbersBook.

Neely Quinn 

Okay, cool. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Marisa.

Marisa Michael 

Thank you, Neely. It’s been great to talk with you again. I appreciate it. 

Neely Quinn 

Yeah, you too. I’ll talk to you soon.

All right, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Marisa Michael, you can find her nutritionforclimbers.com. And then on Instagram @RealNutritionDietitian. And then I also linked to her website and her book, which is Nutrition For Climbers in the show notes, so you can find all those links there. And I also linked to Intuitive Eating Book, Health at Every Size, Anti-Diet, and some other things that Marisa has done on our site. So hopefully, this will give you an insight into what intuitive eating is and potentially help you to start eating more intuitively, which I wholeheartedly support you doing.

So again, I just want to remind you that Alex Stiger is definitely accepting three new clients right now, it might be down to two, but two or three clients right now. And she is — she specializes in helping people break through plateaus. So if you’re stuck at a certain grade, she can definitely help you with that. And she did help herself with that as well. So she knows a thing or two about it. She’s also only five feet tall. And so she also specializes in working with shorter climbers. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to be a certain height or below it just means that you feel limited in your ability to reach things a lot and so she can help you with that. And she has definitely helped herself with it. I — I honestly am like blown away sometimes by how much she has improved as a climber in the time that I’ve known her. I have watched her go from projecting 12a´s, with a lot of fear and timidness, to crushing 13d´s and bouldering like a boss and reaching things that I definitely can’t reach, and I’m about a three quarters of an inch taller than her. But she works with climbers of all abilities, and with all kinds of goals. So if you want to work with her, you can go to trainingbeta.com/alex. I think that’s all I got for you today. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. You can find us on social media @trainingbeta. You can find all of our training programs at trainingbeta.com/programs and I will talk to you in a couple weeks.